Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread

[BobTheCoward]

Can’t answer that, as I’ve not been in her position.

Are you not capable of answering hypothetical based on supposing assumptions are applied to yourself?

 

[The Big Dog]

A statement by politician does not mean the majority of the constituents is aware of the issue.

"Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage."

 

[BobTheCoward]

She was the first "woman of color" to join the Harvard faculty, according to Harvard. I'm pretty sure they didn't make that up, so it's far more likely that Fauxcahontas lied to them about it. I'm sure you would agree it wasn't Harvard that lied about it.

She didn't lie.

 

[The Big Dog]

DUMB•ASS•KISS DONNY?



You're getting all my A material tonight folks!!

"What Warren did is despicable—not just because of how short-sighted and selfish it was, but because it betrays the agreement between tribal governments and the United States government that our people are their own people."

 

[BobTheCoward]

"Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage."

None of that indicates the spread of knowledge of the issue.

 

[Meadmaker]

Its spiritual tribal mumbo-jumbo. Many NAs find the whole idea of DNA offensive in and of itself. The problem for them is that DNA proves their creation myths to be scientifically wrong.

Native American creation myths reject evolution and the idea that their ancestors migrated to the Americas from outside. They hold that Amerindian peoples originated in North America.

Are there Native Americans who actually believe that? I mean, maybe a few very old people, perhaps, and one or two wackos, but really, is literalism a thing when it comes to Indian creation myths?

 

[The Big Dog]

None of that indicates the spread of knowledge of the issue.

Yeah, I am going to go right and thank you for your assumption that native Americans are ignorant of these developments and that their leaders do not speak for the majority of their constituents

“Disgraceful” “despicable...” say bob did y’all read the article, or should we assume that the spread of knowledge has only made a slight dent in this thread?

 

[The Big Dog]

Are there Native Americans who actually believe that? I mean, maybe a few very old people, perhaps, and one or two wackos, but really, is literalism a thing when it comes to Indian creation myths?

No, that is what bigots believe about them. Actual skeptics have been posting their actual objections.

 

[The Big Dog]

“Why So Many Native Americans Are Upset That Elizabeth Warren Tried Proving Her Ancestry With DNA”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/elizabeth-warren-dna-test-native-american.html

The primary complaint about Warren’s place in this affair has to do with her use of a DNA test to seek out evidence of a tribal ancestor. According to several activists and experts whom Slate spoke to Monday, the use of a genetics test—setting aside the unreliability of those tests—indicated that Warren was buying into and promoting the notion that it is blood that determines who is and is not American Indian.

“There’s this really critical distinction between DNA and ancestry on one hand and identity and belonging on the other,” said Deborah Bolnick, an anthropological geneticist at the University of Connecticut. “These are things based on social connections. Especially in the context of tribal nations—these are sovereign nations with political and legal contexts to them. It’s not genetically determined.”

Hopefully we can hear more stories from white folks about how proud they were of their DAR ancestors.

 

[smartcooky]

She never said she "was an Indian". She said she had Native American lineage (Cherokee and/or Delaware by family lore). And she does.

"the results strongly support the existence of an unadmixed Native American ancestor in the individual’s pedigree, likely in the range of 6-10 generations ago." (DNA report)

Actually, this is a key word in there that some people are missing..

In genetics, admixture takes place when separate haplogroups with a common historical lineage come back together through, for example, invasions or migrations, and then interbreed. This type of genetic admixture leaves a characteristic signature in DNA. Its the prime cause what what some people in this thread are erronously calling "background noise"

However, the DNA report specifically states that Warren's Native American DNA is unadmixed . That means it lacks the characteristic signature of this so-called "background noise" and points to a strong likelihood of a specific, single Native American ancestor, just exactly as her family's oral history says.

 

[citizenzen]

Are you not capable of answering hypothetical based on supposing assumptions are applied to yourself?

I think it’s a little tougher than you think.

I wasn’t raised being told my great-great-great grandmother was a Cherokee. I don’t know how important that lore was in Warren’s family or her own mind.

Here’s an example.

Years ago, when I was in college, I applied for an internship with USA Today. In a phone interview I was asked if I was a minority, as the internship was slotted for one. When I said I didn’t qualify, the interviewer pressed, saying I could possibly fit a minority status that I was overlooking. But I said no, I’m a garden variety white male and couldn’t see myself qualififying as anything else.

Now imagine instead that I’d grown up being told that an ancestor was Native American. Would I have ended that interview in the same way? It’s impossible to say. But it would have changed how I contemplated the answer.

 

[Stacyhs]

Because we judge actions beyond them being criminal or for personal gain. Actions can demonstrate a concern for appropriateness, temperament, skepticsm, morality, etc. These questions about did she lie ordoes it validate her story are irrelevant to the bigger issue. Not a single defender would have done the same thing. That says a lot about her decision.

Oh, boy....I could do a great 'whataboutism" for Trump here, but I won't.

She wasn't lying as she believed then, as she does now, that she had/has N American lineage. Which she does.

Whether or not another defender would have done the same thing is irrelevant as none of us were in her shoes (no moccasin jokes, please). None of us can know what was in her mind at the time concerning her heritage. She has never claimed being any more "Indian" than having a 3 or 4X great grandparent. Would I have done it? I don't know as I don't identify as "Creek" even though I have the same amount of NA ancestry as Warren. Had I grown up with stories of my Creek heritage, maybe I would have. It's all just speculation. And, once again, it's making a mountain out of a molehill because it's all her detractors have. Well, that and calling her Pocahontas and Fauxcahontas.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Its spiritual tribal mumbo-jumbo. Many NAs find the whole idea of DNA offensive in and of itself. The problem for them is that DNA proves their creation myths to be scientifically wrong.

Native American creation myths reject evolution and the idea that their ancestors migrated to the Americas from outside. They hold that Amerindian peoples originated in North America.

Now, when you view the pronouncements from the Cherokee Tribal representatives through the lens of their religious beliefs, you get a better idea of where they are coming from. They are not so much criticizing Warren for claiming Native American ancestry; if they were, they would have done so long ago. No, they are offended by they way she went about it, i.e. her use of DNA, which to any spiritual Native American believer, is tantamount to heresy.

NOTE: Australian Aboriginals have a similar attitude to DNA; its a manifestation of evil spirits. Despite the fact that there is overwhelming archaeological and DNA evidence that Aboriginals migrated to Australia from Africa via the North Coast of the Indian Ocean, arriving in Australia about 40 to 50,000 years ago, they utterly reject this. Their creation myths involve something they call "The Dreamtime"; the time before time. Like Native American myths, The Dreamtime myth tells them they originated in Australia.

Many thanks.

So basically anti-science nonsense... which is what it sounded like in the article Big Dog posted, but I couldn't make sense of it. Now I know why.

 

[The Big Dog]

Oh, boy....I could do a great 'whataboutism" for Trump here, but I won't.

She wasn't lying as she believed then, as she does now, that she had/has N American lineage. Which she does.

Whether or not another defender would have done the same thing is irrelevant as none of us were in her shoes (no moccasin jokes, please). None of us can know what was in her mind at the time concerning her heritage. She has never claimed being any more "Indian" than having a 3 or 4X great grandparent. Would I have done it? I don't know as I don't identify as "Creek" even though I have the same amount of NA ancestry as Warren. Had I grown up with stories of my Creek heritage, maybe I would have. It's all just speculation. And, once again, it's making a mountain out of a molehill because it's all her detractors have. Well, that and calling her Pocahontas and Fauxcahontas.

Rebecca Nagle, a writer and citizen of the Cherokee Nation, said that Warren’s decision to publicly tout a DNA test as evidence of Cherokee heritage had her “terrified” about the ways it could affect the public’s understanding of tribal sovereignty.

 

[The Big Dog]

Many thanks.

So basically anti-science nonsense... which is what it sounded like in the article Big Dog posted, but I couldn't make sense of it. Now I know why.

Are you kidding? Why would you believe that nonsense instead of the several articles from actual Native Americans I have posted?

“Instead of looking to genetics, tribal genealogists can look at the extensive records the tribes have kept of their members to check if someone claiming native ancestry does indeed have legitimacy. Warren participated in the extremely common tradition among Americans of claiming a Cherokee ancestor. While many Native Americans believe the vast majority of those claims are false, if her ancestor had appeared on their records, she would have been accepted into the tribe, Nagle said.”

 

[Stacyhs]

Are there Native Americans who actually believe that? I mean, maybe a few very old people, perhaps, and one or two wackos, but really, is literalism a thing when it comes to Indian creation myths?

This might be of some interest to you.

https://newsmaven.io/indiancountryt...oitation-of-their-dna-mn4Fo3oxYU2tp7dkNoxZTA/

 

[citizenzen]

Rebecca Nagle, a writer and citizen of the Cherokee Nation, said that Warren’s decision to publicly tout a DNA test as evidence of Cherokee heritage had her “terrified” about the ways it could affect the public’s understanding of tribal sovereignty.

Understandable. She’s seen how incapable some Americans are at comprehending science and their eagerness to misapply it politically.

 

[Pterodactyl]

Are you kidding? Why would you believe that nonsense instead of the several articles from actual Native Americans I have posted?

“Instead of looking to genetics, tribal genealogists can look at the extensive records the tribes have kept of their members to check if someone claiming native ancestry does indeed have legitimacy. Warren participated in the extremely common tradition among Americans of claiming a Cherokee ancestor. While many Native Americans believe the vast majority of those claims are false, if her ancestor had appeared on their records, she would have been accepted into the tribe, Nagle said.”

Because it doesnt make any goddam sense. I already said that.

Taking a DNA test isn't "offensive". It's a procedure that provides data.

Not accepting reliable data is what we call "woo" 'round these parts.

 

[crescent]

“Why So Many Native Americans Are Upset That Elizabeth Warren Tried Proving Her Ancestry With DNA”

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/elizabeth-warren-dna-test-native-american.html

Of course, they are equally critical of Trump for the Pocahantas slur, but you'll let that slide.

While many of President Trump’s critics have pointed out that the president has repeatedly used a slur, Pocahontas, to mock Warren’s claim to Native American ancestry, some Native Americans have said that both Trump’s overt racism and Warren’s claims to an indigenous identity should be criticized as harming the national understanding of indigenous identity and rights.

I'll give you credit, you're doing better than B-Baby, who is just slinging the racist slurs left and right, while claiming to be upset about someone else's racism.

That said, I see this two ways: 1) Warren spoke of family history which included a Native American ancestor. That has proven to be true. She has said that her family was proud of this history, that's plausible. Her family thought that the ancestor was Cherokee, that's also plausible - but not provable.

2) Warren allowed herself to be marked down as a minority in college diversity records. Maybe that didn't impact her hiring, but it was a stretch, to say the least. For that she ought to apologize.

 

[The Big Dog]

Because it doesnt make any goddam sense. I already said that.

Taking a DNA test isn't "offensive". It's a procedure that provides data.

Not accepting reliable data is what we call "woo" 'round these parts.

That is because you CLEARLY have not read a single thing (other than your pal’s racist nonsense).

Did you see anything in the Cherokee Nation’s statement about creationism? Of course not.

“If there is one item you remember, let it be this: I am not Native because of my blood; I am Native because I belong to a tribe, and despite what courts like the one in Texas say, a tribe is not a group of people gathered together because they are of the same race. It is a collective, a nation of citizens bonded by ancestral and historical commonalities, the likes of which no other group has on this land. On this, there is no budging. For anyone to decry this, or declare it moot, is to walk into the same trap Warren did—that of denying Native people the sovereignty and autonomy to declare, for themselves, who is Native and who is not. In voice, both through her video and past statements, Warren has maintained that only tribes have the power to determine who is a member; in practice, by completing this DNA test as some sort of rebuttal of truth to Trump’s repeated jabs, she has circumvented this acknowledgment of tribal sovereignty and clung to that heritage for no other reason than being able to claim a cheap political victory.”

Tell me if you need help understanding that.