Electricity in Ancient Egypt

[Thermal]

8enotto:

I think the problem is projecting modern understanding and technologies that aren't being represented. You mentioned 'understanding' the Ark of the Covenant. We don't have anything but a trivial description of it's size and the common materials used, which were in no way unique. A tremendous amount had to be shoveled on top to reach the understanding you affirm of it having this alternate purpose and construction. A gold leaf lined wood box does not an electrical condenser or battery make.

 

[8enotto]

I didn't say it was, no way anyway without the original. But a recreation from description did prove it -could- have had the reported properties.

Did the recreation deliberately put in something to make sure? I don't know. I leave that to doubt. I won't be building one myself.

The Hebrew tribe wanted a special box to carry something special. That was what they intended to make.

I find that the myth and what we know hold parallels is interesting.

 

[Andy_Ross]

Only for the credulous

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... Maybe even in times science was more advanced to be able to understand and measure what is going on.

For example, maybe in ancient times they had some advanced way of detecting the effects of various planets' positions at the time of a person's birth, and do it with such precision that they could tell someone's fortune years into their future. And they managed to pass on this arcane system even though the methods by which it was originally worked out are lost.

Or maybe they just made astrology up.

 

[8enotto]

Or modern times could prove it to be a huge load of horse manure. Which has been far more often.

Keeping ones interest is minor compared to going all in on the strange stuff.

I can recall the first newly arrived copy of "Chariots of the gods" hitting the local library and thinking what a load of crap. " In search of " like programs on the TV going great distances to find... Eye witnesses speculating on what might have been out there in the fog. We knew it was fake. My brother was a big Star Trek fan and any Leonard Nimoy show was priority. Lol!

 

[HansMustermann]

Where are the precursors to this technology? How did they work this out prior to the first "identified" version? Can we duplicate the claimed technology (don't need to create a 1:1 scale model)?

Well, I think I'd give this one a pass. IF it's just a case that someone noticed that some big rocks glow faintly when you put more big rocks on top of them, that's not a whole lot of technology. And it doesn't strain suspension of disbelief that a civilization which was fond of stacking big rocks on top of other big rocks... well, that's all the prior they'd need, innit?

Mind you, I don't think they had that technology. Nor that UNDERGROUND vaults would have anything to do with an ABOVE GROUND phenomenon like earthquake lights.

But for a change it's not a claim that needs tungsten-tipped electric drills as a prior or anything. So I guess that's some comfort

 

[HansMustermann]

I'd also like to add, because ancient Egypt history kinda is my thing, that the timing is all wrong. And not just for the supposed dark age.

The problem is that it happens during the reign of Ramesses II, which is waahaahaay after they had stopped making huge pyramids and such.

And here's why that matters: You'd think that if there was a moment to notice the piezoelectric properties of granite, well, the great pyramid has some granite beams above the burial chamber, that are under immense stress. That's about the most stress they've ever put granite under. If there were a noticeable phenomenon about it, that would be high time they noticed it.

Yet nobody seems to notice anything like that, or at least not write about it. Nor for the previous or next pyramids and great monuments, for that matter.

But somehow some much smaller vaults are supposed to generate more stress in granite than THAT? Not likely.

It seems to me like the most parsimonious answer to "why use granite there?" is simply because that's what they did for more than a millennium at that point. When they needed some very tough construction material, they used granite. See those beams in pyramids again. When they just needed filler, they used limestone (or mud bricks for houses and such), but when they needed something that can bear great loads, they used granite. So basically searching for extra special explanations for it, would be like seeking special explanations for why the Romans used concrete. That's just how their building technology worked.

 

[8enotto]

Thank you Hans. I am learning a bit more every day.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Several people have already covered this, notably, as usual, Myriad and Hans Musterman, however:

Electronics is my area of expertise. Piezo electricity is a concept almost as often called on in woo as quantum mechanics. Problem is, for the woo'ists, that unlike quantum mechanics, piezo electricity is fairly simple and well understood:

A number of materials, including, but far from limited to, crystalline quartz have the property that if you deform them, an electric potential occurs in the direction of the pressure, but also depending on the orientation of the crystalline structure.

The effect is reversible, that is, if you apply an electric potential, the crystal will change shape.

This effect has been extensively exploited to build a number of useful devices; e.g. microphones, pressure transducers, earphones, frequency references, electronic lighters ... etc. The effect does not directly imply any light transmission, but of course, as some materials are electroluminicent (emit light if an electrical potential is applied) a combination of piezo-electrical and electroluminicent materials may produce light under pressure.

Piezo-electrical materials are generally isolators, thus the charge they produce is of a static character. If any energy is to be extracted from it, it is quickly discharged. Therefore, as some already mentioned, to generate any kind of continuous power output, the pressure must keep changing.

Now for granite: Granite contains quartz crystals, so a changing pressure on granite presumably produces piezo-electric potentials. Unfortunately, the orientations of such crystals are generally chaotic, so the overall charges will cancel out. Also, the other components of granite are non-conductive, so there is no way such a charge could build up over any large amount of material.

In other words, while granite, under temporary pressures extreme enough to crush it, might produce some temporary light phenomenon, more mundane conditions will not do that.

Hans

 

[Darat]

Well, I think I'd give this one a pass. IF it's just a case that someone noticed that some big rocks glow faintly when you put more big rocks on top of them, that's not a whole lot of technology. And it doesn't strain suspension of disbelief that a civilization which was fond of stacking big rocks on top of other big rocks... well, that's all the prior they'd need, innit?



Mind you, I don't think they had that technology. Nor that UNDERGROUND vaults would have anything to do with an ABOVE GROUND phenomenon like earthquake lights.



But for a change it's not a claim that needs tungsten-tipped electric drills as a prior or anything. So I guess that's some comfort

But the explanation and description isn't just about piling lots of stones on each other, it is that bones have to be involved and one specific type, that there has to be a hermetically sealed stone box.

 

[HansMustermann]

BTW, skipping over whether Egyptians could do that, does anyone else find electrostatic charge to be an implausible explanation for earthquake lights?

The problem is that the atmosphere is not ionized normally. Even if you applied a huge electric field, it wouldn't just glow like a fluorescent tube. It would do nothing, until the field exceeds the electrical breakdown point of air, and then you get lightning.

And lightning is NOT something mentioned in conjunction with those lights, strangely enough.

But let's say you somehow get the air ionized too, AND have enough of a potential, spanning tens of miles, to make the air glow like a fluorescent lamp. Well, that's a HUGE potential, and that would be a huge current. At ground level, not miles away upwards.

Light wouldn't be the only thing you notice there. More like the first thing you'd notice is that your power grid got EMP-ed out. Your compass points the wrong direction. Smell of ozone from all that ionized air. That kinda thing.

 

[dudalb]

Actually, slight clarification: the Egyptians wrote down EVERYTHING. We have even novels from them. For example the world's first known historical novel is from middle kingdom Egypt.

.

"So Let It Be Written, So Let It Be Done"

As for the OP, textbook example of Crackpot History.

 

[Loss Leader]

The arc of the covenant may well have been a type of capacitor - the instructions the few permitted to handle it or carry it were given seems to indicate special handling was demanded but for practical or religious reasons who really knows. Supposedly the arc had long handles made of wood inserted into loops or pockets on the side to pick it and carry would be consistent with handling a large electrical charge but that was pretty much how a sedan chair was handled and the largest electrical charge involved was the temper of the rider.

Adding to all this nonsense is the fact that the bible sort of records a fire that at least tangentially involved the Ark. That's not the same as electrocution, though, so never mind.

Leviticus 10

 

[MRC_Hans]

Adding to all this nonsense is the fact that the bible sort of records a fire that at least tangentially involved the Ark. That's not the same as electrocution, though, so never mind.

Leviticus 10

The Ark of the Covenant could, if constructed right (the inner, gold plated, surface was insulated from the outer, gold plated, surface), function as a capacitor. Without any specific data, I would estimate that it would at most comprise a capacitance of one micro-farad, although it would probably be less.

So, assuming it became charged to 10,000 volts (without special charge collection, that would seem optimistic), it would hold a charge of 50 J.

That would give somebody touching in a way to get the discharge through their body a very nasty shock. However, while unforgettable, it would hardly be lethal for a healthy person (A defribillator, designed to SAVE lives, delivers around 500 J).

Hans

 

[Andy_Ross]

Don't talk daft. A gold plated wooden box isn't going to electrocute anyone.

 

[Loss Leader]

That would give somebody touching in a way to get the discharge through their body a very nasty shock. However, while unforgettable, it would hardly be lethal for a healthy person (A defribillator, designed to SAVE lives, delivers around 500 J).

Ha! Now you're in my territory! I've been shocked by both external defibrillators and internal ones while awake. The external shock was about 200J, the internal was usually 20J. The machines can be turned higher, but it would be unusual for a first shock. And I can tell you from personal experience that being electrocuted sucked. It's like being hit by a bus. It caused me lifelong anxiety.

So, yes, everything you said was correct. Carry on.

 

[HansMustermann]

The Ark of the Covenant could, if constructed right (the inner, gold plated, surface was insulated from the outer, gold plated, surface), function as a capacitor. Without any specific data, I would estimate that it would at most comprise a capacitance of one micro-farad, although it would probably be less.

So, assuming it became charged to 10,000 volts (without special charge collection, that would seem optimistic), it would hold a charge of 50 J.

That would give somebody touching in a way to get the discharge through their body a very nasty shock. However, while unforgettable, it would hardly be lethal for a healthy person (A defribillator, designed to SAVE lives, delivers around 500 J).

Hans

This. It's a piss-poor capacitor, if that was the intention at any point. And not just by modern standards. It's piss-poor even by what someone could do back in the day.

If they actually wanted to make a capacitor, ordinary window glass has about 10 to 14 (rounded at either end) MV/m dielectric strength, so for 10,000 Volts you'd only need 1mm thick even for the worst glass.

Dry wood is anywhere between 1.4 and 2.9 MV/m. Let's take 2 as some average wood they could get from any local market, and now you need 5mm of wood to hold the same voltage. With the capacity and thus charge going down accordingly.

And now you also have a problem if that wood does get wet.

 

[Myriad]

This. It's a piss-poor capacitor, if that was the intention at any point. And not just by modern standards. It's piss-poor even by what someone could do back in the day.

If they actually wanted to make a capacitor, ordinary window glass has about 10 to 14 (rounded at either end) MV/m dielectric strength, so for 10,000 Volts you'd only need 1mm thick even for the worst glass.

Dry wood is anywhere between 1.4 and 2.9 MV/m. Let's take 2 as some average wood they could get from any local market, and now you need 5mm of wood to hold the same voltage. With the capacity and thus charge going down accordingly.

And now you also have a problem if that wood does get wet.

I'm pretty sure "ordinary window glass" didn't exist back then.

 

[HansMustermann]

Well, I meant to say it's not some special glass. That said, glass most certainly existed back then. In fact, it had existed in the Middle East for more than 1500 years even taking the most generous estimates for the Exodus. It was just not the grade that you'd want to put in a window.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Mmm, remember that the Ark of the covenant, if it ever existed, was made primarily to hold some stone tablets. Glass of that era was hardly suited to support large, heavy, and hard objects.

However, I'd like to step back a bit and look at not just electricity in Egypt but in the general area and era of ancient Egypt. I'm sure this would be within the scope of this thread, especially as the OP has not been back to comment.

We know that the Greek discovered a form of electricity by rubbing amber against fur. The Greek name of amber is electron. They found that it could then attract small light objects. This experiment is in written accounts, is easily duplicated, and was quite feasible even in antiquity.

We know that the so-called Bagdad batteries existed. We found them. They consist of a small pottery container with what could be interpreted as an iron/copper battery. Such a cell would yield 0.78 volt. It might be able to deposit gold on silver, or make frog's legs move.

The Ark of the covenant described in the OT is supposed to be a wooden box, covered with gold plates, both on the inside and the outside. If it existed and if the plates of the inside were NOT connected to those on the outside (normally any metal plates covering a wooden box would be connected, but ...), then the box could act as a capacitor. Wood is not a very great insulator, but in the dry climate where the myth places it, it might still be able to build up and hold a fair charge.

So assuming they all existed, what was the purpose of these ancient electrical devices? Well, none of them could really do anything useful, but in the hands of religious leaders they might be used to impress people. Remember, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic (Arthur C. Clarke).

The Ark of the covenant would be unlikely to really hurt anybody, but it might certainly impress and scare them.

The Bagdad Batteries, in the right context (and possibly a few dozen connected in series) could be sold as the magic of gods.

The Electron in Greece is known to have impressed and interested scholars. Over 2,000 years were to pass before we could actually explain what happened.



Hans