Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[Rolfe]

Not a direct response to you. More directed towards the quote from Rolfe.

It doesn't actually take that much arm strength to loosen or tighten lug nuts, as long as you are in fairly good health. Squat, hold the wrench with your hands and stand up, using your legs to break the nut free. If a healthy adult of either sex can't break it free, find a new tire shop because they overtightened them. (Usually only supposed to be around 100 foot pounds.) Same technique can be used for the final torque.

The hard part is getting the spare in place.

I get a little annoyed with the idea that women can't change a tire. I made my daughter do it in drivers ed. (Something that should be part of the drivers ed class.) She can do it and she's pretty small. Of course, when she had a flat last week and her husband was at a job site, she called me to change it. Not because she can't, but because she won't.

My experience was that I could not shift the nuts, whereas men could shift them. It's a bit late to blame the garage when you're stranded. I suspect they tightened the nuts to a point where they themselves would be able to loosen them. I was totally up for changing these wheels myself, but I simply couldn't.

The world is built for men. Brick size, weight of feed bags, design of car seats and safety belts and so on. You can't identify out of having on average something like 30% less grip strength. Sure, some women are stronger than some men, but it's a markedly bimodal distribution.

 

[bruto]

My experience was that I could not shift the nuts, whereas men could shift them. It's a bit late to blame the garage when you're stranded. I suspect they tightened the nuts to a point where they themselves would be able to loosen them. I was totally up for changing these wheels myself, but I simply couldn't.

The world is built for men. Brick size, weight of feed bags, design of car seats and safety belts and so on. You can't identify out of having on average something like 30% less grip strength. Sure, some women are stronger than some men, but it's a markedly bimodal distribution.

To be fair also it depends not only on who tightened them last, but what shape the wrench is. Many lug wrenches do not take easily to stomping on without coming off the nut crookedly, and some that aren't badly angled are too short. My ex wife was quite competent in this sort of thing, and could change tires all right, but had to call me one day when she couldn't get the nuts off. I came with a dedicated 4-way lug wrench (aka "cross wrench,") and it broke! I had to go back, get a breaker bar with an impact socket and a piece of pipe as a "cheater" to get it off. A garage had replaced the tires and walloped them on with an unregulated impact wrench.

I may have said this already, but if you do anticipate being in this situation again, I would recommend you practice at home, at leisure. Find a wrench you can stomp on. If you can find a good cross wrench and a free-standing jack, you can use the jack to support the leg of the wrench opposite the one you're using, and that allows you to put your full weight on it. Or, if you can't find a good lug wrench, get a sturdy impact socket of the right size, and a flex handle breaker bar, on which if necessary you can slip a piece of pipe or tubing for even more length. Nowadays most garages are pretty decent about torquing wheel lugs at least within human limits, but they're still a bit sloppy.

 

[novaphile]

To be fair also it depends not only on who tightened them last, but what shape the wrench is. Many lug wrenches do not take easily to stomping on without coming off the nut crookedly, and some that aren't badly angled are too short. My ex wife was quite competent in this sort of thing, and could change tires all right, but had to call me one day when she couldn't get the nuts off. I came with a dedicated 4-way lug wrench (aka "cross wrench,") and it broke! I had to go back, get a breaker bar with an impact socket and a piece of pipe as a "cheater" to get it off. A garage had replaced the tires and walloped them on with an unregulated impact wrench.

I may have said this already, but if you do anticipate being in this situation again, I would recommend you practice at home, at leisure. Find a wrench you can stomp on. If you can find a good cross wrench and a free-standing jack, you can use the jack to support the leg of the wrench opposite the one you're using, and that allows you to put your full weight on it. Or, if you can't find a good lug wrench, get a sturdy impact socket of the right size, and a flex handle breaker bar, on which if necessary you can slip a piece of pipe or tubing for even more length. Nowadays most garages are pretty decent about torquing wheel lugs at least within human limits, but they're still a bit sloppy.

Some of this talk about over torqued nuts may explain why wheels sometimes come off in traffic, i.e. the studs have been stripped, the wheel exits the vehicle, with the studs and nuts in place!

I'm very happy to report that the tyre place I use, used an actual torque wrench to do up the nuts, after consulting the manufacturer's spec.

Unfortunately, I don't get to watch the dealership doing the servicing on the car, so I have no idea what they're up to.

I carry a wheel wrench with a built-in extension bar, but it's a big moot, because I don't carry a spare wheel.

(I mainly have it in the boot because I do have a spare wheel for and on my trailer.)

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Some of this talk about over torqued nuts may explain why wheels sometimes come off in traffic, i.e. the studs have been stripped, the wheel exits the vehicle, with the studs and nuts in place!

I'm very happy to report that the tyre place I use, used an actual torque wrench to do up the nuts, after consulting the manufacturer's spec.

1) Beyond stripping, over-torquing lug nuts can stretch the stud to the point that it can fail unexpectedly.

2) I don’t normally watch, but when in an emergency Discount Tire put 4 new tires on our travel trailer, I was pleased to see them use a torque wrench for final tightening.

 

[bruto]

Yes, it's much more common now to use a proper torque wrench, or "torque sticks" which, on a pneumatic wrench, supposedly limit the torque. The requirements are not super-fine, so that's usually OK. I usually double check them at home, using a cheapo torque wrench. 80 foot pounds is usually pretty good, and a little over doesn't hurt.

 

[EHocking]

I was driving when they introduced the 'road tax' on fuel back in the eighties, it was originally separated from general tax revenues and designed to fund road repairs and upgrades ONLY...... (it paid for the east coast highway as well as many other roads, it was actually good to see roads at the time being improved- these days.... not so much...)
Anyone else remember 3x3???
3 cents a litre, for three years....


These days I wonder how much actually still goes into that purpose (plus Howard introduced the GST which effectively 'double dipped' fuel for tax)

There was no double-dipping on fuel tax when GST was introduced, as the existing fuel excise was reduced to fully compensate for the addition of GST.

It was the bastard retailers who took advantage of the introduction of GST to increase RRP by 10% and blame it on the government.

 

[TomB]

To be fair also it depends not only on who tightened them last, but what shape the wrench is. Many lug wrenches
do not take easily to stomping on without coming off the nut crookedly, and some that aren't badly angled are too short. My ex wife was quite competent in this sort of thing, and could change tires all right, but had to call me one day when she couldn't get the nuts off. I came with a dedicated 4-way lug wrench (aka "cross wrench,") and it broke! I had to go back, get a breaker bar with an impact socket and a piece of pipe as a "cheater" to get it off. A garage had replaced the tires and walloped them on with an unregulated impact wrench.

I may have said this already, but if you do anticipate being in this situation again, I would recommend you practice at home, at leisure. Find a wrench you can stomp on. If you can find a good cross wrench and a free-standing jack, you can use the jack to support the leg of the wrench opposite the one you're using, and that allows you to put your full weight on it. Or, if you can't find a good lug wrench, get a sturdy impact socket of the right size, and a flex handle breaker bar, on which if necessary you can slip a piece of pipe or tubing for even more length. Nowadays most garages are pretty decent about torquing wheel lugs at least within human limits, but they're still a bit sloppy.

To be clear, I'm not talking about stomping on them. That's a good way to get hurt.
I'm talking about the same motion as doing squats at the gym.:
1) Put the wrench on the nut with the handle at about 3:00.
2) Squat in front of the wrench.
3) grab the wrench with one or both hands. (Doesn't matter. You aren't using your arm muscles.)
4) Stand up. The work is done entirely by your legs muscles.
5) This will have broken the nuts loose and they should now spin off by hand.
6) Tightening do the same, but with the wrench handle at 9:00.

This is how I do it and how I showed my daughter. No upper body strength necessary.
The wrench being the foldable one that comes with the car jack that doubles at the jack handle.
If I'm at home, I use my electric impact to loosen (never to tighten).
I used to have an impact wrench that plugged into the cigarette lighter on the car. That was nice as well, but doesn't really make things that much easier than just standing up five times.

The only part that requires strength is putting the new tire in place.

ETA: If you see the garage putting the lug nuts on with a standard impact, find a new garage. (You can use them to spin them on quickly, but not for tightening/torquing.) Impact is for loosening, not for torquing things in place.

 

[TomB]

My experience was that I could not shift the nuts, whereas men could shift them. It's a bit late to blame the garage when you're stranded. I suspect they tightened the nuts to a point where they themselves would be able to loosen them. I was totally up for changing these wheels myself, but I simply couldn't.

The world is built for men. Brick size, weight of feed bags, design of car seats and safety belts and so on. You can't identify out of having on average something like 30% less grip strength. Sure, some women are stronger than some men, but it's a markedly bimodal distribution.

See my reply above. It shouldn't require a lot of grip strength if you use two hands. As for tool design, the only thing that would help is a longer wrench. (That's why breaker bars are long.)

 

[TomB]

I may have said this already, but if you do anticipate being in this situation again, I would recommend you practice at home, at leisure. Find a wrench you can stomp on. If you can find a good cross wrench and a free-standing jack, you can use the jack to support the leg of the wrench opposite the one you're using, and that allows you to put your full weight on it. Or, if you can't find a good lug wrench, get a sturdy impact socket of the right size, and a flex handle breaker bar, on which if necessary
you can slip a piece of pipe or tubing for even more length. Nowadays most garages are pretty decent about torquing wheel lugs at least within human limits, but they're still a bit sloppy.

I used this method to remove the front axle nut on my old saturn vue. The spec is 205 ft/lb.
I put an 8 foot pipe on a breaker bar and lifted. Came right off.
Tricky part was I had to put an extension and support it with a jack stand.
Oh, and torquing it back on...

I should also mention that you break lug nuts free with the car on the jack, but before the wheel is lifted off the ground. Otherwise the wheel will spin or you are pulling against the transmission/CV joints.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Since we’re on the topic, I keep an extension pipe around.

I have it marked every 12” out to 48”. At the lower right, you can see a small digital “fish scale” on the ground. With that, let’s say I need 200 ft lbs. I can simply apply 50 lbs of pull at 48” and I’m there. For other settings a little math gets the job done.

Here it’s being used to tighten the large lug nut on my wife’s CanAm Ryker, which calls for 220 ft lbs. I have the extension pipe marked “Ed” at 14” - that’s where I’ve calculated I have to stand on it at my weight for 220 ft lbs at the nut.

Note: I posted this solution to a Ryker Facebook group and a few members roundly criticized me, implying it was a good way to get killed. But of course, it’s simple physics, and at least as accurate as a torque wrench. And I do have proper torque wrenches, just none that go that high.

 

[TomB]

Since we’re on the topic, I keep an extension pipe around.

I have it marked every 12” out to 48”. At the lower right, you can see a small digital “fish scale” on the ground. With that, let’s say I need 200 ft lbs. I can simply apply 50 lbs of pull at 48” and I’m there. For other settings a little math gets the job done.

Here it’s being used to tighten the large lug nut on my wife’s CanAm Ryker, which calls for 220 ft lbs. I have the extension pipe marked “Ed” at 14” - that’s where I’ve calculated I have to stand on it at my weight for 220 ft lbs at the nut.

Note: I posted this solution to a Ryker Facebook group and a few members roundly criticized me, implying it was a good way to get killed. But of course, it’s simple physics, and at least as accurate as a torque wrench. And I do have proper torque wrenches, just none that go that high.

I would have gone with lifting instead of standing on it, myself, but that wouldn't work with torque calculations.

220 ft lbs is...a lot. But I see from pictures that it's a single lug nut with a snap ring retainer.
That would be difficult in the field, but I guess those don't carry spares anyway.

 

[TomB]

Back to electric cars....
I'd love one. The Rivian I mentioned earlier seems interesting.
My wife is dead set against them at this point because of charging time on trips.
I know some of you like a twenty minute charging break\lunch break on a trip. But for some, it's kind of a deal breaker.

I don't think she will let me get one until:
a) We can rely on a charging station being roadside when the charge gets low (similar to gas station availability) without planning it out.
b) We can spend five minutes or less charging before going another 3-400 miles.

A friend of mine has a Chevy Bolt. I drove it. It was fine. But for the regenerative braking, you had to use paddles on the steering wheel. After forty years of using my foot to braking I don't know how fast I'd adapt. (I wonder if that's what he was doing when he claims it surged on him pulling into a parking space.?)

 

[Fast Eddie B]

220 ft lbs is...a lot. But I see from pictures that it's a single lug nut with a snap ring retainer.
That would be difficult in the field, but I guess those don't carry spares anyway.

You can see in this photo it’s a large nut with a spring pin to prevent rotation. On a road trip I’d probably carry the large socket I had to buy so any shop could dismount the wheel in an emergency.

 

[malbui]

Back to electric cars....
I'd love one. The Rivian I mentioned earlier seems interesting.
My wife is dead set against them at this point because of charging time on trips.
I know some of you like a twenty minute charging break\lunch break on a trip. But for some, it's kind of a deal breaker.

I don't think she will let me get one until:
a) We can rely on a charging station being roadside when the charge gets low (similar to gas station availability) without planning it out.
b) We can spend five minutes or less charging before going another 3-400 miles.

I'm sure I've mentioned this on here many times, but for me the charging stops are an opportunity rather than a bug. I semi-frequently do a 2000km round trip up to the UK and the rhythms suit me fine... drive for two and a half or three hours and then stop for half an hour to recharge the car, stretch my bladder and ease my legs. The older I get, the less comfortable I find long drives.

Of course, all use cases and preferences are different.

 

[8enotto]

You guys have been talking about electric pickup trucks, but no one has mentioned the Rivian. There seem to be quite a few around here. Maybe because they are made nearby.

Anyway, they seem to be well built and look good (unlike the cybertruck) although they are kind of expensive. My understanding is that they are built with both luxury and off-road use in mind. Bed is still to short for the trebuchet, but you can get more space with the tailgate down.

The Rivian still is more road oriented than off road. I have seen one used off the road suffer damaged front suspension. The body panels are quite expensive should you need to replace one. His front fender area got munched a bit and he was quoted 15 grand usd for the repair.

I am sure a local shop could get it fixed for less but it was brand new at the time.

 

[Rolfe]

But for the regenerative braking, you had to use paddles on the steering wheel. After forty years of using my foot to braking I don't know how fast I'd adapt. (I wonder if that's what he was doing when he claims it surged on him pulling into a parking space.?)

Wut?????

 

[The Don]

Wut?????

That's an odd one for sure.

Mrs Don's EV has controls to set the level of regenerative braking but then once selected it just happens. She did one pedal driving for a year or so but now has minimum regen and just uses the brake pedal - which itself uses regenerative braking for anything other than a near emergency stop.

 

[Dabop]

That's an odd one for sure.

Mrs Don's EV has controls to set the level of regenerative braking but then once selected it just happens. She did one pedal driving for a year or so but now has minimum regen and just uses the brake pedal - which itself uses regenerative braking for anything other than a near emergency stop.

Thats pretty much all EV's that do that anyway....

(during my 'test drive' of the Atto, I found it remarkably easy to just 'drive as normal'- especially easy as I use engine braking in my car as well- its habit from driving heavy vehicles for years... I only ever use the brakes for the last few metres...)

 

[zooterkin]

A friend of mine has a Chevy Bolt. I drove it. It was fine. But for the regenerative braking, you had to use paddles on the steering wheel. After forty years of using my foot to braking I don't know how fast I'd adapt. (I wonder if that's what he was doing when he claims it surged on him pulling into a parking space.?)

Nonsense. I just checked the owner's manual. Braking with the pedal uses the brakes and/or regenerative braking, depending on the circumstances. You can also use the paddles to just do regen, but it's not the only way to do it. (My Kia Niro is the same.)

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[Rolfe]

I've got a button on the steering wheel that will change the level of regeneration, but the only brake I have is the one under my foot.