Cont: Electric Vehicles II

[acbytesla]

Road gradient is measured rise divided by run times 100. I'm sure the UK has plenty of steep hills. I used the Alpe D'Huez as an example. It was the first thing that came to mind. Anyway my point was that 250 watts hardly cuts it around here. It's just so hilly. About the only places you can expect flat riding is along the shores of Puget Sound and the some of the lake shore trails.

Flat riding is the exception.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Name​	Start date​	Start lb​	Target​	Current​	Last update​	Height​
carlitos Casebro Guybrush Manopolus Orphia Nay Pixel42 Silly Green Monkey The Don Tomboy Trebuchet xterra	Sep 01 2015 Oct 06 2016 Jan 15 2018 Jun 23 2024 Apr 11 2015 Jan 01 2015 Jan 1 2021 Jan 01 2016 Jan 24 2022 Nov 12 2020 Oct 02 2016	223 297 191 210 218 162 190 194 274 238.5 183	165 235 175 170 165 147 145 161 150 180 160	177 244 180 170 188 154 175 149 186 201.0 151	apr 06 2022 Jul 24 2023 Jan 24 2023 Aug 18 2024 Aug 27 2024 Oct 25 2024 Apr 09 2022 Jun 26 2024 Jan 06 2024 August 1 2024 Oct 29 2024	5'9" 6'3" 6'4" 6'4 5'9.5" 5'5" 5'9" 6'2" 5'2" 5'9" 5'10"

OK, I've copied the table template kindly supplied by Darat and cut & pasted the latest values from the text imported above. It was a pretty tedious process, so I left out anyone who hadn't updated since 2021. I've updated my own entry (up a pound ). It should now be possible for anyone to quote and copy the table and update their entry. If anyone knows how to get rid of the blank rows that appeared at the start and end by all means remove them when you do your update.

ETA: I swear it was properly aligned when I posted it, but now it isn't. I'll try and fix it.

ETA again: I've had to truncate a name, but it now seems OK.

I can pretty much guarantee that you have those slopes figures wrong. Read this article if you think I'm smoking something.

How Steep of a Hill Can You Ride an Electric Bike? | Exploring the Limits of E-Bike Climbing

Curious about the capabilities of electric bikes on steep hills? Discover how steep of a hill you can ride an electric bike on and explore the limits of e-bike climbing. Find out if an electric bike can handle your favorite uphill routes and get ready for an exhilarating ride.

www.sixthreezero.com

The famed Alpe d'Huez is probably the most famous climb in the Tour de France. It's a must-do ride for serious road cyclists. It is known for: hairpin turns and the steep gradient. The climb has
an average gradient of 8.1% and a maximum gradient of 13%

The extra power is not about speed, but extra weight. A 250 watt motor on a flat surface will be enough for 90% of riders out there. Add a slope and little extra weight, the extra power makes huge difference. Maybe the UK is so flat the extra power doesn't matter and I'm talking out my ass. My impression of the UK when I was there that it was hillier the farther North you are. Scotland definitely had some serious hills. London wasn't very hilly if I remember correctly. I remember the Netherlands to be very flat. .

I'm sure my experience living on the West Coast of the US has colored my perspective. I wouldn't say I live in the mountains, more the foothills of the Cascade mountain range. It is hilly around here from Alaska all the way to LA. The extra power for a 200 pound rider like me is greatly appreciated here.

We do have some very steep hills in the UK, but I think you are right that The Don is mistaken about quite how steep the ones near him are, unless there's more than one way of describing the gradient. The switchbacks on Alpe D'Huez are there to keep the gradient down to something manageable for all traffic, so it's not a good example as a rebuttal. https://www.dangerousroads.org/europe/england/10244-the-top-five-steepest-streets-in-england.html

I'm going to go with The Don, Garmin devices and Strava will give you fairly accurate gradients, so I think he's speaking from knowledge. I've also cycled up Alpe d'Huez a number of times, and it's definitely not as steep as some UK roads. El Angliru on the other hand.....

 

[acbytesla]

I'm going to go with The Don, Garmin devices and Strava will give you fairly accurate gradients, so I think he's speaking from knowledge. I've also cycled up Alpe d'Huez a number of times, and it's definitely not as steep as some UK roads. El Angliru on the other hand.....

There are r
I'm still skeptical. I lived for years on a 14.6 grade road and I couldn't ride a bike straight up it. I'm sure I could go up it if I cut the steepness down by going side to side. But the traffic wouldn't allow that.
Here is a list with pictures of the steepest roads in Washington State.

Washington's 10 Steepest Roads: How Steep Are They Actually?

So, you think you have driven on some steep roads before? Maybe it was one of these!

97rockonline.com

You can find steeper roads in the US. There is one in San Francisco listed at 41 percent. So anything is possible. But I doubt anyone is climbing up it on a bike.

 

[Rolfe]

I can pretty much guarantee that you have those slopes figures wrong. Read this article if you think I'm smoking something.

How Steep of a Hill Can You Ride an Electric Bike? | Exploring the Limits of E-Bike Climbing

Curious about the capabilities of electric bikes on steep hills? Discover how steep of a hill you can ride an electric bike on and explore the limits of e-bike climbing. Find out if an electric bike can handle your favorite uphill routes and get ready for an exhilarating ride.

www.sixthreezero.com

The famed Alpe d'Huez is probably the most famous climb in the Tour de France. It's a must-do ride for serious road cyclists. It is known for: hairpin turns and the steep gradient. The climb has
an average gradient of 8.1% and a maximum gradient of 13%

The extra power is not about speed, but extra weight. A 250 watt motor on a flat surface will be enough for 90% of riders out there. Add a slope and little extra weight, the extra power makes huge difference. Maybe the UK is so flat the extra power doesn't matter and I'm talking out my ass. My impression of the UK when I was there that it was hillier the farther North you are. Scotland definitely had some serious hills. London wasn't very hilly if I remember correctly. I remember the Netherlands to be very flat. .

I'm sure my experience living on the West Coast of the US has colored my perspective. I wouldn't say I live in the mountains, more the foothills of the Cascade mountain range. It is hilly around here from Alaska all the way to LA. The extra power for a 200 pound rider like me is greatly appreciated here.

I don't need a motor at all on a flat surface! For crying out loud, we're talking about bicycles.

Scotland, paradoxically, doesn't have very long steep gradients other than some really exceptional roads like the Bealach na Bà. As I said, we build the main roads along the glens where the gradients are not steep, and even the minor roads tend to be undulating - steep gradient for a bit, but then it levels off. I've come across three gradients near here that had me panting at high assist and bottom gear, but the gradient eased off before I had to get off the bike.

Paradoxically, England has some absolute corkers, especially in the Pennines. It seems that when they build roads in England they don't take any prisoners and don't think about snow and ice. In Scotland, both the Corrie Yairack pass and the Devil's Staircase were built as public roads in the early 1700s and then abandoned because they were too damn dangerous.

I've done the Bealach na Bà in the car, out and back, but I wasn't really thinking about how it would be to cycle. I imagine I could do most of it on Hilda (my e-bike), just walking short stretches.

 

[8enotto]

Around me it's the roads running near the river that runs through the city. Civic planning comes slow, we still have a few old roads they haven't tried to fix or bypassed steep grades. But we aren't looking at more than a city block long.

I just walk them to save my knee to make the distance to work.

I rather like the drop down to the river to cross the bridge. No traffic, good road and just one speed bump.

 

[acbytesla]

It turns out that the UK has loopholes to the 250w continuous power rule big enough to run a truck (sorry, lorry) through. They leave it up to the manufacturer to certify the motors. They can test any motor at 250w and not even bother testing it if it can handle 500 or 750 watts continous. So the 250 watt motor in the UK may very well be a 500 watt motor.

 

[The Don]

I can pretty much guarantee that you have those slopes figures wrong. Read this article if you think I'm smoking something.

How Steep of a Hill Can You Ride an Electric Bike? | Exploring the Limits of E-Bike Climbing

Curious about the capabilities of electric bikes on steep hills? Discover how steep of a hill you can ride an electric bike on and explore the limits of e-bike climbing. Find out if an electric bike can handle your favorite uphill routes and get ready for an exhilarating ride.

www.sixthreezero.com

The famed Alpe d'Huez is probably the most famous climb in the Tour de France. It's a must-do ride for serious road cyclists. It is known for: hairpin turns and the steep gradient. The climb has
an average gradient of 8.1% and a maximum gradient of 13%

The extra power is not about speed, but extra weight. A 250 watt motor on a flat surface will be enough for 90% of riders out there. Add a slope and little extra weight, the extra power makes huge difference. Maybe the UK is so flat the extra power doesn't matter and I'm talking out my ass. My impression of the UK when I was there that it was hillier the farther North you are. Scotland definitely had some serious hills. London wasn't very hilly if I remember correctly. I remember the Netherlands to be very flat. .

I'm sure my experience living on the West Coast of the US has colored my perspective. I wouldn't say I live in the mountains, more the foothills of the Cascade mountain range. It is hilly around here from Alaska all the way to LA. The extra power for a 200 pound rider like me is greatly appreciated here.

The 25% gradient is posted on the road sign and it's consistent with both Strava and my Garmin head unit. Likewise the 16% gradient for the climb out of St Arvans heading towards Devauden (there's a similar ramp up into Devauden itself). None of these are long climbs, a couple of hundred yards at most but like the Flanders "walls" they're very steep.

Talking about overall hilliness, it's quite usual for a club ride to have 1,000 feet of ascent per 10 miles of riding. We consider a flat ride to be 500 feet per 10 miles. We're not climbing mountains, the Tumble is 1,200 of vertical but most of our climbs locally are in the 600-800 feet range but we'll have 2, 3 or 4 of them in a typical ride and then a lot of rolling roads with continual small hills.

Here's a few of our favourite climbs:
https://veloviewer.com/segments/3529140 Gospel Pass
https://veloviewer.com/segment/795526 Wentwood "Darkside"
https://veloviewer.com/segment/1948371} The Tumble

I don't have power meters (still waiting for them to arrive from Spain - grrrr) so my power output is estimated by Strava. On a climb of that type I will typically average 250-300 watts and am usually in the top 5%-10% of riders on Strava so I'm not slow. My usual bike (Planet X Kaffenback in winter configuration) isn't much lighter than Rolfe's at around 14kg and I'm not heavy but IMO 250 watts of assistance would be more than sufficient to get a rider and their bike up those kinds of hills so long as the rider was willing to contribute and you're not trying to keep up with someone like me.

Bear in mind also that if we're talking about using bikes for commuting purposes then the roads will likely be flatter and the distances shorter (most people don't commute 50-100 miles a day on their bike). Even if you have some ridiculously steep hills (Constitution Hill in Bristol springs to mind) there's often a way to get to the same place that's a lot less steep but a lot longer (in this case up the Jacob's Wells Road and through Clifton village). If you find yourself attempting to go up a 41% gradient then perhaps consider an alternative route.

As regards long climbs, I've only ever done them in Sardinia but although the climb was around 3,000 feet, the gradient was a consistent and manageable 7%-9% throughout.

 

[The Don]

We do have some very steep hills in the UK, but I think you are right that The Don is mistaken about quite how steep the ones near him are, unless there's more than one way of describing the gradient. The switchbacks on Alpe D'Huez are there to keep the gradient down to something manageable for all traffic, so it's not a good example as a rebuttal. https://www.dangerousroads.org/europe/england/10244-the-top-five-steepest-streets-in-england.html

Unless the posted road signs, my Garmin head unit and Strava are all wrong then those roads really are that steep - albeit for a comparatively short distance.

For example, here's the Strava segment which takes in the Scowles climb. The segment as a whole is under 7% but the second half is a lot flatter. The steep bits are coming into the hairpins.

Scowles Road | Strava Ride Segment in Forest of Dean, United Kingdom

www.strava.com

 

[The Don]

I'm going to go with The Don, Garmin devices and Strava will give you fairly accurate gradients, so I think he's speaking from knowledge. I've also cycled up Alpe d'Huez a number of times, and it's definitely not as steep as some UK roads. El Angliru on the other hand.....

One of these days Mrs Don and I will go to the continent to tackle some of those long alpine passes. We used to go skiing to Val d'Isere a lot and the Col d'Iseran looked tempting.

Northern Spain looks far too steep to have any kind of fun on though. If the road surface is ribbed concrete because tarmac would simply melt and run down the mountain then it's too steep for bicycles IMO.

 

[acbytesla]

If you want to ro something absolutely spectacular, try biking the Going to the Sun Road in Glacier National Park. You can only do it for about a month. Late May to early June. It's a 32 mile road up the Continental Divide. It rises up about 3400 feet. Oh, you meant Europe.

Guided Biking Glacier National Park

Join Glacier Guides on a Guided Biking Glacier National Park trip. Explore Going-to-the-Sun Road in May & June before it opens to vehicles.

glacierguides.com

 

[zooterkin]

Unless the posted road signs, my Garmin head unit and Strava are all wrong then those roads really are that steep - albeit for a comparatively short distance.

For example, here's the Strava segment which takes in the Scowles climb. The segment as a whole is under 7% but the second half is a lot flatter. The steep bits are coming into the hairpins.

Scowles Road | Strava Ride Segment in Forest of Dean, United Kingdom

www.strava.com

Fair enough, I was taking the article I shared at face value, it's clearly incorrect about the steepest 5 streets in the UK! Apologies for doubting you.

 

[The Don]

Fair enough, I was taking the article I shared at face value, it's clearly incorrect about the steepest 5 streets in the UK! Apologies for doubting you.

That article relates to the average gradient of those streets along the whole length. The maximum gradient is often much higher.

 

[Rolfe]

That's what concerns me about the Graveyard road. I reckon it's about 10% on average but from the contour lines it looks as if some sections are significantly steeper. We'll see. I can always walk if necessary.

 

[The Don]

That's what concerns me about the Graveyard road. I reckon it's about 10% on average but from the contour lines it looks as if some sections are significantly steeper. We'll see. I can always walk if necessary.

Does that road have a specific name ? If so I can probably find the climb profile online.

Looking at the picture you posted a few pages ago, a significant challenge may be the road surface. A10% gradient on good tarmac is one thing, on loose gravel it may be much more difficult because maintaining traction may be a challenge.

I think I'd like to give Bealach na Ba a go from Applecross. I've done climbs twice that length at that average gradient but not with the same variation in gradient.

Bealach na Ba from Applecross - Profile of the ascent

Bealach na Ba from Applecross is a climb in the region Highland. It is 8.5 km long and bridges 614 m of vertical ascent with an average gradient of 7.2%, result

climbfinder.com

 

[acbytesla]

That's what concerns me about the Graveyard road. I reckon it's about 10% on average but from the contour lines it looks as if some sections are significantly steeper. We'll see. I can always walk if necessary.

Seems like a graveyard road would be going down not up.

 

[Guybrush Threepwood]

Does that road have a specific name ? If so I can probably find the climb profile online.

Looking at the picture you posted a few pages ago, a significant challenge may be the road surface. A10% gradient on good tarmac is one thing, on loose gravel it may be much more difficult because maintaining traction may be a challenge.

I think I'd like to give Bealach na Ba a go from Applecross. I've done climbs twice that length at that average gradient but not with the same variation in gradient.

Bealach na Ba from Applecross - Profile of the ascent

Bealach na Ba from Applecross is a climb in the region Highland. It is 8.5 km long and bridges 614 m of vertical ascent with an average gradient of 7.2%, result

climbfinder.com

I've only driven it and thought at the time it looked looked like a great cycle. The only slight issue is it's a long way round to avoid doing the other side first, which is harder.

 

[Rolfe]

Yes, even driving it, my impression was that the westbound direction near the top was the really nasty bit. I had to pull aside for a Tesco delivery van...

 

[Rolfe]

Does that road have a specific name ? If so I can probably find the climb profile online.

Looking at the picture you posted a few pages ago, a significant challenge may be the road surface. A10% gradient on good tarmac is one thing, on loose gravel it may be much more difficult because maintaining traction may be a challenge.

I think I'd like to give Bealach na Ba a go from Applecross. I've done climbs twice that length at that average gradient but not with the same variation in gradient.

Bealach na Ba from Applecross - Profile of the ascent

Bealach na Ba from Applecross is a climb in the region Highland. It is 8.5 km long and bridges 614 m of vertical ascent with an average gradient of 7.2%, result

climbfinder.com

The graveyard road (you can see why we call it that) is tarmac, though whether it's "good" or not depends on what the council have been repairing recently. Come to think of it, I have not been up that road past the point where the last turning that goes to houses branches off - I was election leafleting and not interested in what was after that. Heaven knows what it's like after that. If anything, it'll be treated as a section of the Cross Borders Drove Road.




The actual photo I posted, of the zig-zags on the Corrie Yairack pass, is a very different animal. That was once paved, but I think the paving stones are long gone. Dear knows what the surface is like. I can tell from the OS aerial view that the culverts have all collapsed, meaning that there's a rough ford every 100 yards or so. (It's an old Wade's road, and one of the reasons Wade built high up the mountainsides was to save money on bridges over rivers - culverts to deal with wee burns were a lot cheaper.)



Note that these contour lines are 10 metres apart while the ones on the previous map are at 5 metre intervals. It's really quite hard to judge how steep any of this is. The Don, do your web sites have anything to say about the Corrie Yairack pass?

 

[The Don]

It says ouch !

Segment Details for Corrieyairack Pass - VeloViewer

6.47 km ride with 432 m of climbing, average grade of 6.7 %. Check it out!

veloviewer.com

The average gradient isn't too bad but there are some serious ramps in there.

 

[Rolfe]

That's interesting. Obviously I'd be walking parts of it, but that's better than walking all of it. Seems to me it might be rideable with the obvious exception of the zig-zags themselves. In fact, looking at the detail, it may be that the very steep gradients are simply the turns of the hairpins, which I wouldn't even consider riding. I'm not in a hurry, take all day if I like. I just have an ambition to get up there. I don't think an ordinary bike would be much help, although it would get me back down more easily (don't think I haven't done that, popliteal tendinitis can be a literal pain), and an e-bike seems like a better plan than walking from Melgarve. (Now, if I had a pony...)