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Cont: Electric Vehicles II

We're in the middle of Storm Éowyn at the moment and the power has been completely stable. Not even a flicker that I noticed (although to be fair I've only just turned the lights on). But all these warnings of power cuts got me thinking. I've probably got about 30 kwh in the garage doing nothing right now.

My solar-and-battery system doesn't work in power cuts, I know that. It chatters back and forward with the grid all the time. However, there is an add-on that will let it work during a power cut, and I'm thinking about getting that. Absolutely mad to have a home battery with plenty power there for the whole day and night, and I can't use it if the grid goes down. In particular, I've no way to keep the central heating boiler going.

So what could I have done today if the power had gone off? I could run an extension lead from the car into the house, but the geometry of that isn't great, especially to get the extension lead into the cupboard where the fridge and freezer sockets are. If I did that though, it would let me boil the kettle, run the microwave, run the TV and hifi and broadband. Alternatively I could take the kettle (and even a small microwave I have) out to the garage and operate them beside the car. Tea, coffee, cup-a-soup, pot noodles, microwave meals. I could recharge the computer battery, and in fact my phone, Kindle and so on recharge from USB sockets in the car anyway. I'm not sure about taking the wifi router out into the garage though!

The main issue is heat though. If I used a resistance heater it would drain a lot from the car to heat even one room. Maybe better to decamp into the car itself with the heater on, which I know only uses about 1% of the battery per hour after the initial heat-up period. I saw a video from Wales of someone with a car which didn't have VtL where the family, particularly the kids, did that, using their phones and tablets charged from the car battery and keeping warm.

But it's all bloody ridiculous. I need to enquire about the add-on to let the house run from its own battery during a power cut. And then about getting a battery charger that would let the house battery be charged from the car's VtL if the power cut was prolonged. In fact one could do on indefinitely like that (although it would be expensive) so long as there was a public charger live not too far away. If the car got low (and it won't drain below 20% from the VtL, which is about 30 miles), just take it to the charger, fill up, and back to the house. I have friends who were off for two weeks after the 1987 storm in Sussex, so it's always in the back of my mind. I've asked my supplier what's practical anyway, so we'll see.

In any case, though, it's becoming obvious that having an EV during a power cut can be a significant advantage, even if all you do is use it as an extra room which has heat and power.
 
We unfortunately can't run our house from our battery in the event of a power cut and Mrs Don's car doesn't do VtL.

We recently had an extended power cut of nearly a day. Head torches provided light (rechargeable from a couple of power blocks we keep charged), we are able to heat our lounge (which is open plan to sun room and kitchen, around 70 metres square in total) with a multi fuel stove and our snug with an alcohol burner.

We have a gas powered camping stove for hot drinks and our pans fit on the stove

Powering the house from the battery would be nice but we rarely get extended power cuts of more than an hour and unless it's sunny, the battery would last a day and a half tops. Don't think the benefit and risk are worth the cost.
 
I don't have the backups you have, and in particular I don't have a stove that will heat the house. I'm informed that adding "Emergency Power Supply" capability to my system would cost from £500 to £1,100 plus VAT, which doesn't sound that bad actually. (I'm expecting the higher figure, because I think the lower figure is just to put a 13A socket on the battery, which would be no more use than the car's existing VtL capability.)
 
Sometimes wiring changes make an 'islanding' system more expensive.

You need a mechanism that isolates your entire home from the grid, during a blackout, but allows your batteries to run your home.

I'm planning to upgrade my solar system to a larger system with a battery and islanding controller in the near future, but may have to do some significant re-cabling because my mains power comes in on one side of the house, the main board is in the middle, and the solar system on the opposite side. I'm hoping that I can just install the islanding controller in my metre box (where the mains enters the house, but haven't confirmed that yet.

So far, most systems I've seen, the inverter is also the islanding controller, and this would require me to rewire the mains to that inverter/controller first, and then take power from it to the main board of the house.
 
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Sometimes wiring changes make an 'islanding' system more expensive.

You need a mechanism that isolates your entire home from the grid, during a blackout, but allows your batteries to run your home.

I'm planning to upgrade my solar system to a larger system with a battery and islanding controller in the near future, but may have to do some significant re-cabling because my mains power comes in on one side of the house, the main board is in the middle, and the solar system on the opposite side. I'm hoping that I can just install the islanding controller in my metre box (where the mains enters the house, but haven't confirmed that yet.

So far, most systems I've seen, the inverter is also the islanding controller, and this would require me to rewire the mains to that inverter/controller first, and then take power from it to the main board of the house.

The installer outlinged all that, but then his top-range estimate for a simple emergency system was £1,100 plus VAT (seems that VAT is payable on this) which comes to £1,320, which isn't bad for peace of mind during Rohan-themed storms.
 
The installer outlinged all that, but then his top-range estimate for a simple emergency system was £1,100 plus VAT (seems that VAT is payable on this) which comes to £1,320, which isn't bad for peace of mind during Rohan-themed storms.
Seems rather excessive- most hybrid inverters (the type that can use a battery and also do gridtie) already come with an internal ATS (automatic changeover switch) built in and require a minimal need for wiring changes (you 'may' need a subboard consumer unit fitted in some cases), but it really isn't required in many cases, just a slight modification to the existing consumer unit is all that is often needed...

Rearrange the breakers so 'non backed up' loads are nearest the existing main incoming switch, and the 'backed up' loads are further away, cut the comb on the feed side so the mains main switch is only handling those none backed up loads, and the inverter is fed through its own heavy breaker and tails down to its mains incoming, with a new main switch on the 'backed up' loads added, and that fed from the mains out from the inverter
Basically all you need three blank slots available and some minor swapping around with some loads breakers- I've done them in under ten minutes in many cases (and that included the testing lol)- theres sometimes a need for a larger new consumer unit if there's no blanks however...

This is my personal inverter (used in offgrid only of course but it is actually a hybrid) before I installed it , and all you need is a run of 5 core (or two three core- or all singles, but I am not a fan of that unless run in two/separated split ducts)- one runs from the grid supply breaker added to the non backed up grid feed (for mains incoming to the inverter), then the run back from the mains out of the inverter that connects to the new added 'backup main switch'
1737768312834.jpeg

I really can't see how a battery added to a hybrid can be of any use at all if it can't be run in island mode - what the hell is the battery doing then???? being a decoration???

The mains input on mine is actually wired for a generator input, as with a quick programming change, it can use the generator to feed its internal 100A mains charger circuitry, negating the need for a separate battery charger for the battery bank
Usually the 'mains feeds the charger' is switched off in the programming (as that would top up the battery bank from the grid rather than the PV solar arrays) but in this case a quick mod to the menu fixes that... its default settings are for the 'backed up' loads to run off the inverter/battery until it hits its 'max discharge limit' (programmable) then switches those loads back to the mains, and then either wait until the next day to recharge the battery bank from the solar (semi offgrid), or can be configured to 'top up' the battery bank from the mains (time shifting loads in other words to use the 'cheap' timeslots to power the loads in the 'expensive' timeslots via the battery bank...)

Now all I need to do is actually get a functioning generator (not that I really need it lol) mine hasn't been started in nearly two decades- really a bit pointless with a well designed solar system, even offgrid...
 
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Sometimes wiring changes make an 'islanding' system more expensive.

You need a mechanism that isolates your entire home from the grid, during a blackout, but allows your batteries to run your home.

I'm planning to upgrade my solar system to a larger system with a battery and islanding controller in the near future, but may have to do some significant re-cabling because my mains power comes in on one side of the house, the main board is in the middle, and the solar system on the opposite side. I'm hoping that I can just install the islanding controller in my metre box (where the mains enters the house, but haven't confirmed that yet.

So far, most systems I've seen, the inverter is also the islanding controller, and this would require me to rewire the mains to that inverter/controller first, and then take power from it to the main board of the house.
Actually- it would be easiest to have the inverter at/near the main board consumer unit- that way added wiring is practically nonexistent...

The main feed from the power in goes to the inverters mains feed in (and any 'non backed up' loads in the consumer unit), and the outfeed mains from the inverters inbuilt ATS goes back to replace the existing 'mains feed in' from the grid supply...

Even if you want the inverter at the existing solar site, its a quite simple addition of a 'feed in' and 'feed out' from the existing consumer unit/main board to the inverter location, and some minor 'shuffling' of MCB's in the existing consumer unit (to separate the backed up/ non-backed up loads)- you 'may' even (depending on the inverters rating) be able to use the existing solar feed to the solar inverter (which will be replaced by a new hybrid) and so adding only one new cable running from the main consumer unit to the inverter would be required....

(those with the stupid (imho) 'microinverters' will have issues- as they don't 'play nice' and often make fitting a 'battery backup' system difficult- they are designed basically for 'gridtie' only use really (some inverters 'can' handle them, but (imho) they really don't work well on them, with individual panels dropping on and off when on 'backup power'- just when you need the most from your array, chunks of it randomly turn on and off!!!)
:mad:
 
I recently purchased an Anker Solis F3800 with one expansion battery to serve as a home backup. I had a generator receptacle installed in the corner of my attached hangar, fortunately not too far from my main panel.

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I had the electrician install a physical lockout, such that I can't activate my backup without turning off the main breaker to the panel. Total cost for the install was $1,050.

AP1GczP540GSy7mLbmxKsytMqTI4onH8BdhLRDo_3BRvcoe8aT48-3hByn8ou9ZgnMUo9eWnKsEQJUcqOblx2U8hmDm0Romrb7BuKnACwmDWwGiLriRpvR6w=w2400


I may expand the Solix with additional expansion batteries, but our blackouts are usually fairly short and I do have a gas generator I can drag out and hook up as a last resort.
 
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I'm always amazed at those US 'lockouts'- that kind of jerryrigging wouldn't fly in most places...

(Depending on location and grid supply type- here you need all three supply lines on a single phase (ie 230v Active/line, Neutral and Earth) to be 'positively' disconnected, and with a 'break before make' switch...
(the UK is similar, although in some cases the earth line is allowed to be left connected to the street supply)
IE in ours- only two 'streetlines' come in on a single phase house, 4 on one with a three phase supply and in each case, the earth/neutral link in the fusebox must be broken, and the two street feedlines also cut...
1737786783760.png
Thats a single phase type, and to be legally installed here, requires the MEN link (earth/neutral link) to be on the GRID side of the switch...
1737786965098.png
A mate had one installed about a year ago, total cost was about $400- including the run to the genny shed and power inlet there... (about 30m away from the fusebox)
 
Actually- it would be easiest to have the inverter at/near the main board consumer unit- that way added wiring is practically nonexistent...

...

It was a lot more cabling to run from the solar panels to the meter box (which is also a large but otherwise empty consumer unit).

Also the location of the meter box was mandatory due to proximity to the street fuse.

The inverter is in a sheltered location outside but under a carport, and the battery will be in that area.

The installers wouldn't consider putting the inverter near the meter box because it was an exposed location and because of the distance from the panels.

Similarly, they were not willing to put the inverter indoors, in the laundry, where the main board for the house is installed.
(Not entirely sure why).

BTW. My setup is similar to the picture above, except I have two outbuildings with their own distribution boards fed from a 60 amp circuit from the house.
 
I'm always amazed at those US 'lockouts'- that kind of jerryrigging wouldn't fly in most places...

Well, it does “meet code” in the U.S. And it does seem pretty foolproof.

Our checklist involves turning off all the dual-gang 240v breakers before energizing the generator input. We didn’t go with a sub-panel since we may have occasion to want to energize one or more of those 240v circuits - mainly the one for the hangar door.

As an aside, I was surprised to learn that the 14-50 receptacle on the Solix only outputs a max of 25A. To get a full 50A requires a second unit and a hub that interconnects them with its own 14-50 receptacle.

Back on topic, in a year or two or three we may be looking at acquiring an EV pickup. Having vehicle-to-home capability, or at least a 14-50 receptacle, will be a big factor in our choice of trucks.
 
Well, it does “meet code” in the U.S. And it does seem pretty foolproof.

Our checklist involves turning off all the dual-gang 240v breakers before energizing the generator input. We didn’t go with a sub-panel since we may have occasion to want to energize one or more of those 240v circuits - mainly the one for the hangar door.

As an aside, I was surprised to learn that the 14-50 receptacle on the Solix only outputs a max of 25A. To get a full 50A requires a second unit and a hub that interconnects them with its own 14-50 receptacle.

Back on topic, in a year or two or three we may be looking at acquiring an EV pickup. Having vehicle-to-home capability, or at least a 14-50 receptacle, will be a big factor in our choice of trucks.
Not surprising that a lot of US made gear has to be heavily re-engineered to meet Australian safety standards (I used to be involved in doing exactly that with the railways- the US signalling gear basically had to be ripped apart and completely redone again from scratch!!!)- meeting US 'code' isn't exactly a high bar...
:eek:
(as for manually switching breakers with a checklist- no, just no.... any system caught doing that here would be an instant 'main street fuse pulled', and no power until fixed and made compliant- plus likely a substantial fine to boot - up to $40k!!!- and if it actually hurts/kills someone, then up to $600k and up to 5 years in prison!!!)

The BYD Atto 3 I have been looking at already has (and has had for several years) V2H/V2G capabilities up to 7kw (30A) although to date V2G isn't allowed (compatible chargers are going through compliance test atm however, and expected later this year in Australia), V2G is as long as you have a legally installed changeover switch (the Atto 3 has a bidirectional charger built into it from the factory)...
So basically atm you need 'two chargers' here- the 'legal' one for charging from the grid, and a 'offgrid' V2H one that can't legally be used from the grid, but can be used to connect to a 'generator changeover switch' via its input socket (not a major hassle, as they really are quite cheap- about $300Au and quite small) and used only for blackouts... (thats a damn sight cheaper than any generator lol)
1737893361823.png

Interestingly- that 7kw is actually 2kw more than the Tesla Powerwalls are capable of (its limited to 5kw) but the BYD offering for their 'powerwall' is imho the better of the two- its cheaper, safer and lasts longer and unlike the Tesla, can be used with 400v 3 phase houses (an important consideration for many Aussies) although the Atto in V2H mode is limited to a single phase output as well...

A DC V2H would allow up to 22kw (30A per phase with its 3 phase 'output' but those are a LOT more expensive (about $2500Au up) or about the price of a 8kVA petrol generator... and really- there are few houses in Australia that would 'need' that kind of power...
 
The more this becomes widely known, the less we should hear the sneers about "what are you going to do in a power cut then?" from the anti-EV mob. As if you don't need electricity to operate a petrol pump.

Already I say, run my house on the electricity stored in the car, what will you do?
 
The more this becomes widely known, the less we should hear the sneers about "what are you going to do in a power cut then?" from the anti-EV mob. As if you don't need electricity to operate a petrol pump.

Already I say, run my house on the electricity stored in the car, what will you do?
That's actually a major problem in my town for the ICErs- we got two servo's- but neither has a genny, and with several afternoon thunderstorms a week killing the power for up to several hours multiple times a week, it can cause issues for those who need fuel in a hurry- tough luck- wait until the power comes back on LOL

Where the owner of the Atto3 I took on a test drive- his 'fuel tank' is always full- and even if we lose power for a week or more (which happened a while back with the floods)- he doesn't care, because his solar panels recharge the house batts and EV even in the worst conditions (slower, true, but they still do it)

(plus of course he gets his 'fuel' for free LOL)
 
That's actually a major problem in my town for the ICErs- we got two servo's- but neither has a genny, and with several afternoon thunderstorms a week killing the power for up to several hours multiple times a week, it can cause issues for those who need fuel in a hurry- tough luck- wait until the power comes back on LOL

Where the owner of the Atto3 I took on a test drive- his 'fuel tank' is always full- and even if we lose power for a week or more (which happened a while back with the floods)- he doesn't care, because his solar panels recharge the house batts and EV even in the worst conditions (slower, true, but they still do it)

(plus of course he gets his 'fuel' for free LOL)
Too many LOLs
 
That's actually a major problem in my town for the ICErs- we got two servo's- but neither has a genny, and with several afternoon thunderstorms a week killing the power for up to several hours multiple times a week, it can cause issues for those who need fuel in a hurry- tough luck- wait until the power comes back on LOL

Where the owner of the Atto3 I took on a test drive- his 'fuel tank' is always full- and even if we lose power for a week or more (which happened a while back with the floods)- he doesn't care, because his solar panels recharge the house batts and EV even in the worst conditions (slower, true, but they still do it)

(plus of course he gets his 'fuel' for free LOL)
I had a bit of a giggle at this report...
1738017917652.png
https://thedriven.io/2024/01/23/no-...house-runs-out-of-gas-but-still-charging-evs/

No probs, just wait until June... thats when you'll be able to get petrol there again...

(bloody gas- its PETROL (or ULP) when you are talking about Australia- gas is a completely different thing ie LPG or 'Autogas') any Aussie reading that would be thinking 'Well I can't refill the BBQ bottle, but I can fill up the car at least' would be sorely disappointed...)

ULP or unleaded petrol is the liquid you pour into a cars fuel tank...
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'Gas' is LPG/Autogas... and is what you find in a tank hooked to a barby (or in some older cars- pretty rare these days...)
1738019130820.png1738019130888.png

Although in rural areas, you are more likely to find a diesel car/ute instead of petrol lol
 

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