Elbe Trackway

[Jodie]

Oh they know where the line is Parn, it's just an intimidation factor that is/was used. The issue is that it wasn't someone else that made these bigfoot researchers look bad, it was the bigfoot researchers themselves that did that.

But God forbid anyone call anything into question, then the responsibility must be shifted onto a scapegoat.

 

[William Parcher]

The issue is that it wasn't someone else that made these bigfoot researchers look bad, it was the bigfoot researchers themselves that did that.

On Bigfoot researchers looking bad...

They never ever look good. They always look bad.

This is because at the point that you begin calling yourself a "Bigfoot researcher" or others call you that, you are beyond proper rationality and reason. You are already compelled by the evidence for Bigfoot to a varying degree.

Can you think of when a Bigfoot researcher looks good from a rationally intellectual perspective? And you can't say "when they properly debunk or discount something" because that still comes from a believer. When believers point out hoaxes they do not suddenly become rational people. It is their continued belief that marks them as irrational.

Much of the behavior and talk coming from Bigfootery is intended to improve the public image of a Bigfoot believer. Many if not most seem desperate to convince almost anyone that believing or "devoting extreme intrigue" is fully justifiable given the accumulated evidence let alone a personal encounter with Bigfoot.

They know that the world looks at Bigfooters as idiots and they would like you to think that it isn't idiotic and and and by golly that thing really might be out there. Yeah, you know the more you think about it the more it all makes sense. These people really are seeing Bigfoot - well some of them. A smart person can understand that. Yes, critical thinking will propel you towards this.

Indeed, there are many Bigfooters who would say that critical thinking is what causes them to believe in Bigfoot.

 

[DennyT]

Oh they know where the line is Parn....

I am astonished that you would write that.
They clearly don't.

 

[DennyT]

Thom Powell, the debunker, wrote this about the 1967 Blue Creek Mountain oops I mean Elbe trackway:

Another uncast Elbe impression. Not an obvious fake, really, but*very wet mud seen here was only found right along the water.* Why would a cautious creature walk where such vivid impression would be left, when most of the beach was dry sand and cracked, drymud? Note too, the even, shallow*penetration unlike*that seen in the London trackway, and the clear even display of all five toes.

 

[Jodie]

As far as the invasion of privacy thing, yes, I think that was/is an intimidation factor used in regards to whatever bigfoot agenda was on the plate. I don't think the liability had the resources or where with all to act knowing the consequences that would follow so stayed just shy of actually doing anything that could be proven illegal. He knew where the line was, pushed the boundary, but remained clear.

This same liability,which I found to be a common denominator among many incidents spanning over several years after I did some digging, is out of the picture for now and what remains has a slightly better sense of perspective and priority than to push anything. I imagine Tontar is doing what needs to be done on his end to counteract whatever might have happened in regards to his privacy issues, which may have originated from the BFRO, if it occurred at all. Until we hear from him all we have is rumor.

 

[Muldur]

You guys are just mad because the researchers were smarter than you thought and caught on to your little booby trap so that the only booby caught was the hoaxer himself. And now you're closing ranks around your guy and trying to shield him from his well-earned scorn.

You know who he is. We know who he is. Mind you I'd rather not see anything untoward happen to him (that would be going too far), but if he were so dang proud of what he's done you'd think he'd step up and take his 15 minutes.

Oddly, he hasn't done that. Maybe because he knows that would end the tiny particle of credibility that he still (thinks he) has forever.

 

[Jodie]

You have absolutely no idea what you speak of Muldur, oblivious as usual.

Credibility of what Muldur? It's not his credibility that was damaged as best I can tell and that credibility only existed in the minds of people like you so I'm not sure it's as anger inspiring as you think it is.

I have no idea who the hoaxer is and neither do you. I know who was accused but that means little in that cult environment that you circulate within. Your god's feet are made of clay and you know it.

 

[jerrywayne]

Muldur,

Did the researchers recognize the tracks as fake at initial viewing? Did they get excited and invite a fellow researcher who had ties to the entertainment industry to take a look for possible TV exposure? Did they find the Tontar connection and then bail, or decided to bail for reasons of clear signs of hoaxing.

I have not followed this story much at BFF. Did you endorse the trackway, stay neutral, or call foul?

 

[LTC8K6]

How come association with hoaxes didn't end Marx and Freeman's credibility forever? Etc.

 

[Óðinn]

KK's sidekick Tontar?

Hmm...Kitakaze - Tontar, Kemosabe - Tonto. Coincidence? I think not!

 

[GT/CS]

Well, you got the last 3 words correct.
Finally something we agree on!

 

[captain koolaid]

You guys are just mad because the researchers were smarter than you thought and caught on to your little booby trap so that the only booby caught was the hoaxer himself...

Yeah well, we would've gotten away with it if wasn't for those meddling kids.

 

[RayG]

You guys are just mad because the researchers were smarter than you thought and caught on to your little booby trap so that the only booby caught was the hoaxer himself.

From my understanding they 'caught on' because of an IP address and because the witness only corresponded by email, not because of any expertise with bigfoot tracks/trackways.

And now you're closing ranks around your guy and trying to shield him from his well-earned scorn.

We're not in pre-school anymore, whoever it is can likely take care of themselves. Not sure I understand why he's deserving of 'well-earned scorn' though. For what, showing that a convincing trackway can be hoaxed? Maybe it was on his bucket list.

You know who he is. We know who he is. Mind you I'd rather not see anything untoward happen to him (that would be going too far), but if he were so dang proud of what he's done you'd think he'd step up and take his 15 minutes.

At this point, I have no idea who he is. I've heard claims and speculation, but no actual confirmation. Maybe he's busy giving some lessons to bigfoot researchers on how to fake trackways.

Oddly, he hasn't done that. Maybe because he knows that would end the tiny particle of credibility that he still (thinks he) has forever.

Oh-Mah, are you serious? Mention bigfoot to someone outside of bigfootery, and see how credible they consider you.

You think Beckjord was on Letterman because Dave took him seriously?

RayG

 

[Muldur]

You have absolutely no idea what you speak of Muldur, oblivious as usual.

Credibility of what Muldur? It's not his credibility that was damaged as best I can tell and that credibility only existed in the minds of people like you so I'm not sure it's as anger inspiring as you think it is.

I have no idea who the hoaxer is and neither do you. I know who was accused but that means little in that cult environment that you circulate within. Your god's feet are made of clay and you know it.

So he's still perfectly credible even though it is now known that he will fabricate evidence to support his claims, or at least try to.

And nice personalizng, Jodie...whatever happened to the decent person I thought of as an "internet friend". You've changed, Jodie, and not at all for the better.

Muldur,

Did the researchers recognize the tracks as fake at initial viewing?

According to their own statements, they initially found enough that was promising that they entertained the hope that the trackway might be legit and definitely warranted investigation, though they also noted things that didn't sit right with them (aka "red flags").

Further information developed that they thought (at that time) supported the authenticity of the trackway., though doubts remained and they remained cautious if optimistic.

Then new evidence started coming to light which clearly indicated that they were being set up by a certain individual. The timing of some of his internet postings on the trackway and their content indicated he knew things either that he should not know at all, or knew them prior to them being publicly discussed.

Eventually a third party did some digging and found out that the email that "tipped" the researchers came from this person's computer IP address. That was the final bit of evidence that sealed the deal. It was a hoax and this individual was up to his proverbial neck in it.

Eventually, the information was disclosed. I find it informative that this individual is steering well clear of the topic now that he knows to expect to get a good verbal shellacking over this at best, and may be looking at a ban eventually. The ONLY time he addressed the issue, according to people I know who have read it (I can't, as it's in a subscription part of the forum) he spent a considerable amount of time ranting and raving about everyone else, but never said he did NOT do it.

The rest I think you know.

I have not followed this story much at BFF. Did you endorse the trackway, stay neutral, or call foul?

I was one of those who was impressed by what was being said publicly about the trackway initially. I defended the integrity of the researchers, and accepted that they were being honest with their reporting of the on-going investigation.

Now that all the facts are known, I do NOT endorse the Elbe trackway in any manner, and I give well-deserved credit to the investigating team for their thoroughness, integrity, and transparency.

Now it's up to the Skeptics, including the hoaxer, to display similar integrity.

Somehow I think I'll be waiting awhile.

 

[Muldur]

From my understanding they 'caught on' because of an IP address and because the witness only corresponded by email, not because of any expertise with bigfoot tracks/trackways.

Then you need to go back and re-read what Derek and DDA actually said in the (now closed) thread. They were ambivalent about the trackway itself from the beginning, but thought there at least was a chance it might pan out, hence they continued.

We're not in pre-school anymore, whoever it is can likely take care of themselves. Not sure I understand why he's deserving of 'well-earned scorn' though. For what, showing that a convincing trackway can be hoaxed? Maybe it was on his bucket list.

He deserves scorn for not only the hoax itself, but for maliciously attempting to impeach the reputation of the researchers by trying it.

Thankfully they didn't fall for it.

 

[Drewbot]

He/she wouldn't get banned here for making a fake trackway that clearly fooled the experts. The footers had to pick there jaws up, they were drooling so bad over these tracks.

Protip: all Bigfoot trackways are hoaxes

 

[River]

So he's still perfectly credible even though it is now known that he will fabricate evidence to support his claims, or at least try to.

And nice personalizng, Jodie...whatever happened to the decent person I thought of as an "internet friend". You've changed, Jodie, and not at all for the better.



According to their own statements, they initially found enough that was promising that they entertained the hope that the trackway might be legit and definitely warranted investigation, though they also noted things that didn't sit right with them (aka "red flags").

Further information developed that they thought (at that time) supported the authenticity of the trackway., though doubts remained and they remained cautious if optimistic.

Then new evidence started coming to light which clearly indicated that they were being set up by a certain individual. The timing of some of his internet postings on the trackway and their content indicated he knew things either that he should not know at all, or knew them prior to them being publicly discussed.

Eventually a third party did some digging and found out that the email that "tipped" the researchers came from this person's computer IP address. That was the final bit of evidence that sealed the deal. It was a hoax and this individual was up to his proverbial neck in it.

Eventually, the information was disclosed. I find it informative that this individual is steering well clear of the topic now that he knows to expect to get a good verbal shellacking over this at best, and may be looking at a ban eventually. The ONLY time he addressed the issue, according to people I know who have read it (I can't, as it's in a subscription part of the forum) he spent a considerable amount of time ranting and raving about everyone else, but never said he did NOT do it.

The rest I think you know.



I was one of those who was impressed by what was being said publicly about the trackway initially. I defended the integrity of the researchers, and accepted that they were being honest with their reporting of the on-going investigation.

Now that all the facts are known, I do NOT endorse the Elbe trackway in any manner, and I give well-deserved credit to the investigating team for their thoroughness, integrity, and transparency.

Now it's up to the Skeptics, including the hoaxer, to display similar integrity.

Somehow I think I'll be waiting awhile.

You know what's not credible? Bigfoot. It doesn't help, the dance you're trying to do around the points. It only avoids the real issues at hand. Without special pleading, and wishful thinking there would be nothing.

Anytime you see a trackway like this, it's going to be fake. You can keep making a fuss, but why? We can prove time and time again that man makes these tracks. No one has proven bigfoot left one print, anywhere. When do the prints become a sign of man? Why is it even considered evidence of "bigfoot"? Citation please.

 

[Kilaak Kommander]

According to their own statements, they initially found enough that was promising that they entertained the hope that the trackway might be legit and definitely warranted investigation, though they also noted things that didn't sit right with them (aka "red flags").

Further information developed that they thought (at that time) supported the authenticity of the trackway., though doubts remained and they remained cautious if optimistic.

If the hoaxer had not been outed and no additional information had come to light, what do you think the final verdict on the trackway would have been? Especially if the researchers had not discovered the hoax and the main objections to the trackway had come from skeptics.

 

[Jodie]

So he's still perfectly credible even though it is now known that he will fabricate evidence to support his claims, or at least try to.

And nice personalizng, Jodie...whatever happened to the decent person I thought of as an "internet friend". You've changed, Jodie, and not at all for the better.

Muldur, I do not condone hoaxing but in the grand scheme of things what real harm did this person do? Nothing that the three ring circus called bigfootery hasn't done to itself repeatedly for the last decade.

It is what it is, they were fooled because no one knows what bigfoot tracks look like.

You think you saw one Muldur, most of those you venerate haven't, why cow tow to people that know less than you do since you have a reason to believe?

Never judge me again Muldur when you came over for the express purpose of stirring the pot. Click your ruby slippers and go home.

 

[RayG]

Then you need to go back and re-read what Derek and DDA actually said in the (now closed) thread. They were ambivalent about the trackway itself from the beginning, but thought there at least was a chance it might pan out, hence they continued.

Tracks were discovered on September 17th.

Within a week Derek Randles is interviewed on internet radio by Sharon Lee. During the interview, Randles calls the find "overwhelming", that he spent 2 days on site casting tracks, that the "last few days have been epic", that he believes there was a purpose to the trackway... the track makers intent was to end up "feasting on blackberries". Randles also says it was "really cool where it chose to walk", and that it was an "amazing track find".

Not once during the 10 minute interview did he mention the possibility of hoaxing, being hoaxed, fake tracks, or give any indication that he thought they weren't real.

Sep 21 - Paul Graves, Cliff Barackman, and Derek Randles “all agree” that the tracks are real.

Sep 24 - DR calls trackway 'historic'.

Sep 25 - DR says Meldrum is pretty excited about the pictures. Calls it possibly the best trackway find yet due to number & clarity. Says it is truly exciting. Also says he believes they are real.

Sep 26 - Nine days after the trackway was discovered, DR is still calling it a compelling find, but that it could also be a hoax. The verdict is still out.

Sep 27 - DR uses the phrase "if it's a hoax", as though he's still not convinced. He also says that if the trackway is hoaxed, the hoaxer went to a lot of trouble, and broke new ground when it comes to hoaxes. Later the same day he says there are a few things that bother him.

Sep 29 - Twelve days after discovery, DR claims to know who is responsible for submitting the initial reports, and speaks of a "seemingly hoaxed track line."

What about Rick Noll?

On September 18th, Rick writes that he "was immediately impressed" by the cast he was shown. He was even more impressed with the trackway, as he mentions the toe movement and fexion, skin detail and varying depths of the tracks. He counts over 200 tracks that he says are "too large to be human."

He thinks they're "either real or fake, not misinterpreted", but then admits, "I don’t think they are fake..." He seems pleased to see "some really good evidence crop up again". He also mentions how he's doesn't have enough strength to do a cross-over step like the track-maker did, and that the tracks are going to "set a new standard." Refers to the track-makers as 'animals', and attaches a photo that includes dermals.

Sep 19 - Calls trackway a Rosetta Stone, says the tracks were not stamped into the ground, and, in his opinion, these tracks are not a hoax.

Provides photos of big toe and mentions that he's no expert, but those look like dermals.

Sep 21 - Agrees that the tracks could be faked, sure, but odds are they aren't.

Sep 26 - Again refers to the track-maker as an 'animal', and says fake tracks would show deterioration towards the end of the trackway, while these tracks did not.

Sep 27 - Ten days after the discovery, he expresses serious consideration of a hoax.

Sep 28 - Wants hoaxer to come forward and show how it was done and also hopes hoaxer is banned from bigfoot message forums.

So I have to ask Muldur, where was this ambivalence you assure us Rick and Derek were filled with in the beginning? Where is your evidence?

He deserves scorn for not only the hoax itself, but for maliciously attempting to impeach the reputation of the researchers by trying it.

How does one define the reputation of a bigfoot researcher? The reputation of a bear hunter for example, is likely going to be the result of the number of bears he is able to hunt, track, and kill. In other words, his reputation will be tied to his success rate. There is no success rate with bigfoot.

Thankfully Eventually they didn't fall for it.

Fixed that for you.

RayG