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Elbe Trackway

Muldur said:
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... but for maliciously attempting to impeach the reputation of the researchers by trying it.
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How in the heck do you "impeach the reputation" of a guy like DDA who - despite overwhelming evidence - sticks to his claim that the imprint of an Elk ass is one of the greatest finds in Bigfootery? :jaw-dropp

The same goes for Derek Randles. Anybody that would call Justin Smeja's story totally credible is not dealing from a full deck.
Add to that the fact fact that he also has incredibly stupid things purported to be evidence of sasquatch on the Olympic Project site that he stands behind one hundred percent - and you have a man whose reputation in the real world would be questioned immediately.
Fortunately - his paying customers (can you imagine that this guy is somehow qualified to be a game guide???) probably don't know about his lack of skill in deciphering marks on the ground.
 
RayG said:
Tracks were discovered on September 17th.

Within a week Derek Randles is interviewed on internet radio by Sharon Lee....
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Thank you for that very well researched and concise presentation of the quoted opinions and timeline of the Great Elbe Trackway Debacle.

It is good to have that for the record as the lies and distortions of people who wouldn't know a fact from a fig are flying fast and furious in an attempt to save the reputation of people whom they champion.

Psssst....Muldur....Your emperors have no clothes! :)
 
By the way, it is clear that the "changes" at a wellknown site devoted to "Bigfoot" were really no changes at all. The idea that the problems were related to one person's personal turmoil was a smokescreen. They continue divulging confidential information, and actively and passively participating in internet harassment...anything goes, to preserve the central dogma. That is what you get with a cult. To paraphrase a prior leader, different rules of logic apply there.
 
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rockinkt said:
Thank you for that very well researched and concise presentation of the quoted opinions and timeline of the Great Elbe Trackway Debacle.

The Shrike said:
Agreed - Yes Ray, thanks as always for such great work.
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Thanks, I prefer to deal with facts, not emotionally-charged wishful-thinking.

Though I doubt we'll see one, I'm looking forward to a similar timeline from Muldur showing all the disbelief, skepticism, and thoughts of suspected hoaxing that he claims Rick and Derek expressed.

Especially within the first three or four days after the discovery.

If Muldur cannot or will not produce said timeline to support his continual claim, then I would say that's typical Muldur behavior, and a pretty accurate reflection of his reputation and credibility as a bigfooter.

RayG
 
Hilarious admission by Powell:
... the tracks seemed like a 'throw down'. That is, they were so ideally placed, and in such an ideal time of year, that it seemed to be a virtual invitation to find and cast these conspicuous tracks. Joe and I even discussed the possibility that, if they were genuine bigfoot tracks, maybe the sasquatch was doing us researchers a deliberate favor by leaving such ideal tracks in such an ideal location.
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'cause, you know, old Sas was aware that Ketchum hadn't come through, and neither had Meldrum's dogs or Sweaty's crayons or Munns boobiness, so he wanted to lift their spirits; it was like he was saying', "Don't be downhearted, pilgrim, keep on believing', I'm here for ya."
 
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Kilaak Kommander said:
If the hoaxer had not been outed and no additional information had come to light, what do you think the final verdict on the trackway would have been? Especially if the researchers had not discovered the hoax and the main objections to the trackway had come from skeptics.
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You mean SOMEONE has been outed. Here's what has happened. Confidential information about one or more individuals has been disclosed by certain persons to a private party, and a name has been bandied about on certain websites and an individual has been harassed via the Internet.

The trackway was made by a person or persons unknown; hoaxing is not a crime. Harassment is.
 
Drewbot said:
The footers had to pick there jaws up, they were drooling so bad over these tracks.
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I beg to differ, there were several of us who could see they were stomper prints. We were drowned out and dissmissed.
 
Yes JC, you were one of the voices of dissent. Sorry for lumping you in.
 
Ray G: seems to me that you are missing a crucial entry: when was confidential personal information given by an internet forum to a private party? I am speculating that it was only at that point, only because of that information, that the believers decided they better get out of the way. Anyone who suddenly decided it was a hoax after that date gets a double barreled semi automatic assault-grade eye-rolling from this quarter...
 
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I wonder if they have the wrong guy. http://hppodcraft.com/forums/index.php?topic=1207.10;wap2


Oh, man, this is really almost a kind of obsession with me. I have a background in forensic anthropology (my undergraduate work) and spent a lot of time making a pair of perfect bigfoot feet. It didn't cost a lot, either. I started with a set of size 18 Nikes that I bought at Ross for $25.00. I cut the bottoms off and I use MOST of my own size 13 foot for the foot - so it preserves the dermal ridges and all that stuff. And then I just used a little latex and wood to fill in the rest of the foot - also cast with my own foot. Because the footprint is made by me and my own working toes, etc it leaves the kind of imprint a real giant foot would leave - the only part that's fake is the heel area - and that's the lest flexible part of the foot anyway. The best part is, I can walk around in them and they just look like me wearing big basketball shoes. In the winter, with jeans and coat on, you don't even notice them.

So far, no one has yet picked up on them. I want someone to find them, then send a cast to Jeff Meldrum, have him confirm them as "real," and then out the footprints in an article for a skeptical publication. I've never made any secret of the fact I hoax bigfoot footprints. When people ask me what I'm doing - I confess right away and explain the project. I even had a game warden ask me why I was out in the woods in deep snow. I explained and he just said, "um, ok - go ahead."
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WGBH said:
I beg to differ, there were several of us who could see they were stomper prints. We were drowned out and dissmissed.
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As you can see by previous posts I've made in this thread, by looking at photographs it's possible to see that various tracks are ~consistent~ with what known Wallace-style prosthetics produce. I've been careful to not go beyond that in my assertions.

I believe there is a similar situation in suspected art forgery. You may have a variety of opinions based on stylistic characteristics of a certain work under consideration, but what can decisively settle the issue is scientific testing. If your purported Renaissance painting contains titanium dioxide white, it's a forgery. If your holy shroud carbon dates to the Middle Ages, it's a forgery.

There is no such unambiguous scientific test for purported Sasquatch tracks. It remains a matter of judgement. This is one of the fundamental reasons that purported Sasquatch tracks are a weak form of evidence.
 
RayG said:
If Muldur cannot or will not produce said timeline to support his continual claim, then I would say that's typical Muldur behavior, and a pretty accurate reflection of his reputation and credibility as a bigfooter.
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Producing facts to back up his statements is not a talent at which our dear Muldur excels.
 
parnassus said:
Thom Powell, the debunker, wrote this about the 1967 Blue Creek Mountain oops I mean Elbe trackway:
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Thom Powell did not debunk anything. He ate it up in the beginning just like the rest of them did. It was Joe Beelart who told Powell that he thought the prints were fakes.
 
tube said:
As you can see by previous posts I've made in this thread, by looking at photographs it's possible to see that various tracks are ~consistent~ with what known Wallace-style prosthetics produce. I've been careful to not go beyond that in my assertions.

I believe there is a similar situation in suspected art forgery. You may have a variety of opinions based on stylistic characteristics of a certain work under consideration, but what can decisively settle the issue is scientific testing. If your purported Renaissance painting contains titanium dioxide white, it's a forgery. If your holy shroud carbon dates to the Middle Ages, it's a forgery.

There is no such unambiguous scientific test for purported Sasquatch tracks. It remains a matter of judgement. This is one of the fundamental reasons that purported Sasquatch tracks are a weak form of evidence.
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I was told, my opinion held no water because I was only going by the pictures. They hold my inexperience in the woods against me. They expect me not to question their judgment because of some BS Bigfootery chain of command. The cheering section for these reseachers, lead by Mulder does not help critical thinking. And the funniest part of it all is,they think I am a Bigfoot skeptic.
 
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parnassus said:
Ray G: seems to me that you are missing a crucial entry: when was confidential personal information given by an internet forum to a private party?
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Well, keep in mind I wasn't making a timeline for the Elbe Trackway itself, I was giving timelines for the reactions of two specific individuals. I suspect the hoax was fully outed on the 28th, though most were becoming suspicious by September 27th. That's just my opinion, based on the reactions and writings by those investigating.

WGBH said:
Thom Powell did not debunk anything. He ate it up in the beginning just like the rest of them did. It was Joe Beelart who told Powell that he thought the prints were fakes.
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Yet in the beginning Joe Beelart thought the tracks were real. In the comment section of a blog dated September 21st, Beelart stated that he and Thom Powell "spent over five hours on site. I assure you the tracks were not fake, also, tracks were deep, etc. etc...I have no problem with doubt; but, these were the real deal..."

A mere six days later, his footer buddy Thom Powell writes, "All I really know is what the track casts in my posession are telling me but already the Elbe trackway has begun to stink. After cleaning and examining the tracks in my posession, I'm inclined to say that the Elbe trackway looks fake."

But that's already September 27th, ten days after the initial trackway was discovered.

And then some footers exhibit 20/20 hindsight, but only well after the fact.

Cliff Barackman, for example. He blogs on September 29th, after everyone has pretty much agreed it's a hoax, that when he first viewed the photos of the footprints he "had some deep reservations about the footprints' authenticity", and that "Many red flags were raised...". Visiting the site didn't help because "a few more red flags were raised." "I had several nagging doubts that I just couldn't let go of."

I can't find any evidence that he thought that way or made any similar comments during the first three or four days of investigation though. Doesn't mean he didn't, of course, just means I can't find 'em.

Anyone who suddenly decided it was a hoax after that date gets a double barreled semi automatic assault-grade eye-rolling from this quarter...
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Exactly. Why anyone can blog that they knew something from the very beginning, especially if they blog it a week or more later. :)

RayG
 
Quote from Joe Beelart: "

Joe Beelart of West Linn here. I spent five {5} hours on site with Thom Powell. I told him after 10 minutes on the ground the tracks were fake. But he is a scientist; I also need to face the fact I wanted them to be real. During the five hours I did not help him cast one track. All I did was study footprints and the surrounding area. Along the way I made two photos of what is probably damning evidence; a "stomping ground," a place where the molds were put on feet.
As far as all the ballyhoo .... what a wonderful PR stunt!! The more attention that goes the supposed hoaxer's way, the closer he gets to morning TV and the comedy programs ... plus maybe his own TV special on "This is how I proved big-name Bigfooters ...." Later. Only 8 nights in the mountains this summer; getting old."
 
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