Egypt Protesters storm US Embassy

If Jones would shut up then that would be fine by everyone I should think, but really, would you want to arrest him to stop him? Issue an injunction? All of these things go very strongly against the American grain.
 
Here are some details about the actual film that is causing the reactions. There is no connection to Terry Jones, other than that he has apparently been promoting it. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444017504577645681057498266.html

The movie, "Innocence of Muslims," was directed and produced by an Israeli-American real-estate developer who characterized it as a political effort to call attention to the hypocrisies of Islam.

The film's 52-year-old writer, director and producer, Sam Bacile, said that he wanted to showcase his view of Islam as a hateful religion. "Islam is a cancer," he said in a telephone interview from his home. "The movie is a political movie. It's not a religious movie."

Mr. Bacile said he raised $5 million from about 100 Jewish donors, whom he declined to identify. Working with about 60 actors and 45 crew members, he said he made the two-hour movie in three months last year in California.
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NoahFence said:
What then do you suggest we do about people like that? These animals over there will riot over a pin drop. They can't be reasoned with, and making these video's only stokes the flames. How do we prevent that? Surely you're not saying just leave everything as is and allow hate speech to prevail, and lead to more violence?

What needs to happen is both sides need to stfu and get together and accept that people are different. Ideally they'd get together and realize they're fighting for nothing because there's no god to begin with, and even if there was it's pretty clear he doesn't care about us. Absent that, how do we combat this type of stupidity?
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They didn't just riot, NoahFence. They attacked your embassy and murdered your Ambassador. Pull your embassy out of there, break off diplomatic relations and impose the harshest sanctions available. This is not the time for caving in to faux outrage about a You Tube video from some obscurity from the backwoods.
 
marksman said:
The youtube video was posted months ago with no reaction whatsoever. As hateful as it may be, it's not the provocation for these riots. The imam who provoked the riots did so my fabricating a story about the video being released in theaters. Even if the video didn't exist, the imam would have invented a different fabricated story.
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This post at Foreign Policy says that the particular timing of the attacks was because an Egyptian TV program played translated clips of the movie in question.
 
An open letter:

Part of the foundation for the cultural context of modern democracy is both freedom of expression and by extension the right to worship as one likes so long as doing so does not violate or abrogate the fundamental rights of others. Part of this is to tolerate the opinions or viewpoints one considers abhorrent and to respond to them with either your own viewpoint or silence.

Terry Jones does not think the international Muslim community is sophisticated enough to follow through with this. He thinks you will take the bait from his taunts and infantile stunts and rise up in a massive wave of violence that will then be met by bullets, bombs and missiles from those the mob attacks. He does not think you are capable of seeing him for the irrelevant and twisted brat that he is. You, of course, will prove him wrong by not supporting the mobs that assail places of diplomacy representing nations that have done nothing wrong except follow their own laws regarding freedom of speech and religion. You will prove him wrong by investigating those that did perpetuate these attacks and bring them to justice.

You will do that because getting worked up by the childish taunts of Jones is just beneath your dignity.

As for Ansar al-Sharia. Beware the sound of approaching helicopters.

___________________________

How everyone seems to be reading this:

"Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions (making the film) by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others."

How I read it:

"Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions (planning a huge riot) by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others."
 
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Nice post Travis. But I think your reading is wrong in the last couple of paragraphs, to be honest. I think it's quite clear that the government is saying "We don't think these things should have been said". Which is of course a different thing to saying "We'll make sure these things are not said".
 
NoahFence said:
What then do you suggest we do about people like that? These animals over there will riot over a pin drop. They can't be reasoned with, and making these video's only stokes the flames. How do we prevent that? Surely you're not saying just leave everything as is and allow hate speech to prevail, and lead to more violence?
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Your "solution" is not allowing hate speech to prevail -- it is allowing violent intimidation to prevail -- and quiet all criticism.

What needs to happen is both sides need to stfu and get together and accept that people are different.
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You just called one side "animals" who will "riot over a pin drop" who "can't be reasoned with."

How, precisely, does your proposal to throw filmmakers to the mob to be torn asunder get them all together singing kum-bay-ah?

I don't have to have a great solution to the world's problems to point out that yours actually makes things worse. You've identified a group that, in your own words, are animals who will riot over a pin drop, and your solution is "FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, NO ONE DROP A PIN!!!!"

You haven't solved the problem, which is not people engaging in "hate speech," but people killing other people over a movie. Or a cartoon. Or a speech. Or how they dress. Or dropping pins.


Ideally they'd get together and realize they're fighting for nothing because there's no god to begin with, and even if there was it's pretty clear he doesn't care about us. Absent that, how do we combat this type of stupidity?
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But you're not combatting anything -- you are surrendering to it. You aren't making anything better; you aren't decreasing violence. That's my point: rewarding violence by giving them what they want will only beget more violence, not less.
 
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Would attacking an embassy and murdering an ambassador constitute an act of war?

Personally, if the Libyan leadership doesn't send in their troops to deal with these people, I wouldn't hold it against the US if they would.
 
NoahFence said:
OK, so no prison time.

Sedate him and drop him off OUTSIDE the Embassy gates in Egypt. Let the horde take care of him. Either way, he knew DAMN well what was going to happen, and should not have provoked them. American lives were lost specifically because this idiot can't grow up.
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Like those civil rights knew the risks so why care should we have been shocked when they got killed? So they ended up in a dam, they shouldn't start **** right?
 
uke2se said:
Would attacking an embassy and murdering an ambassador constitute an act of war?

Personally, if the Libyan leadership doesn't send in their troops to deal with these people, I wouldn't hold it against the US if they would.
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Maybe they could clone Gaddafi and bomb him into power... :rolleyes:
 
uke2se said:
Would attacking an embassy and murdering an ambassador constitute an act of war?

Personally, if the Libyan leadership doesn't send in their troops to deal with these people, I wouldn't hold it against the US if they would.
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^ This. A million times.

And I'm no war monger, I didn't agree with Iraq and was lukewarm about Afghanistan. But unlike Iraq, these people have declared war first. Either the Libyan authorities deal with it swiftly, or the Americans will have to. No US embassy or its staff will be safe anywhere in the Arab world otherwise.
 
uke2se said:
Would attacking an embassy and murdering an ambassador constitute an act of war?Personally, if the Libyan leadership doesn't send in their troops to deal with these people, I wouldn't hold it against the US if they would.
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I'm pretty sure it could be considered one easily enough.
 
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NoZed Avenger said:
Your "solution" is not allowing hate speech to prevail -- it is allowing violent intimidation to prevail -- and quiet all criticism.



You just called one side "animals" who will "riot over a pin drop" who "can't be reasoned with."

How, precisely, does your proposal to throw filmmakers to the mob to be torn asunder get them all together singing kum-bay-ah?

I don't have to have a great solution to the world's problems to point out that yours actually makes things worse. You've identified a group that, in your own words, are animals who will riot over a pin drop, and your solution is "FOR THE LOVE OF PETE, NO ONE DROP A PIN!!!!"

You haven't solved the problem, which is not people engaging in "hate speech," but people killing other people over a movie. Or a cartoon. Or a speech. Or how they dress. Or dropping pins.




But you're not combatting anything -- you are surrendering to it. You aren't making anything better; you aren't decreasing violence. That's my point: rewarding violence by giving them what they want will only beget more violence, not less.
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Mea Culpa:

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. One of my flaws is an inability to articulate exactly what I'm thinking properly. You're going way further into the argument than I am. I'm stuck on "won't this Jones idiot PLEASE shut up", somehow trying to convince myself that if he does there will be less bloodshed. Wishful thinking? Absolutely. Realistic? Probably not.

You're right.

I just wish all this intolerance baloney would stop. For a person who wishes everybody in America would just use facts and stop with the emotional baloney, I sure have egg on my face now.

blah

I blame Pearl and Dani. It's their birthday and I don't know what to get them...

:o
 
uke2se said:
Would attacking an embassy and murdering an ambassador constitute an act of war?
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Only if it was a state sponsored attack. The state has already come out in condemnation.

Personally, if the Libyan leadership doesn't send in their troops to deal with these people, I wouldn't hold it against the US if they would.
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What people? The whole Libyan population? Good luck with making that work.
 
uke2se said:
The terrorist group who claimed responsibility.
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So far the only group I've seen linked is Ansar al-Sharia, and they say it wasn't them. Perhaps that's because they've already got an eye open for drones. Or perhaps it wasn't them. Should we just kill them all and let God sort them out like in the good old days?
 
richardm said:
So far the only group I've seen linked is Ansar al-Sharia, and they say it wasn't them. Perhaps that's because they've already got an eye open for drones. Or perhaps it wasn't them. Should we just kill them all and let God sort them out like in the good old days?
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You'll have to forgive me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that a terrorist group had claimed responsibility.
 
NoahFence said:
Mea Culpa:

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. One of my flaws is an inability to articulate exactly what I'm thinking properly. You're going way further into the argument than I am. I'm stuck on "won't this Jones idiot PLEASE shut up", somehow trying to convince myself that if he does there will be less bloodshed. Wishful thinking? Absolutely. Realistic? Probably not.

You're right.

I just wish all this intolerance baloney would stop. For a person who wishes everybody in America would just use facts and stop with the emotional baloney, I sure have egg on my face now.

blah

I blame Pearl and Dani. It's their birthday and I don't know what to get them...

:o
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Now the sentiment that 'Jones is an idiot spewing hate and it wouldn't hurt our feelings if he just had a little lie down for the next 40-50 years and shut the hell up' IS one I can fully get behind.

But the above is a gracious post that I am glad to see. However, I will, in my memoirs, put it down to my fabulous writing and advocacy skills rather than your inherent decency so as to avoid owing you any royalties.
 
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