Effectiveness of Torture

BeAChooser said:
How trite. How will you understand your enemy if you can't elicit any information from him that he doesn't want you to know? By the way, Sun Tzu lived in an age when torture was the real thing. And he expressed his deep awareness that foreknowledge is a critical factor for success in war and that foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits. It comes from people. :D



Because Obama does, I naturally assumed you do, too. :D
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So you are claiming that the only source of reliable information comes from torturing your enemy?

Pain begets truth?
 
tsig said:
1. Yes i would like the documents released.

2. No

3. false dichotomy.

4. By their own beliefs. No.
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That was quite illuminating.

1) Good for you. You are one of the few on your side of this issue to join me. Now what will you think if Obama doesn't release the documents? Could that refusal be an indication that the CIA was right?

2) You don't think murder is dehumanizing?

3) Why do you claim #3 is a false dichotomy? As posed the two possibilities are mutually exclusive. And you must pick one.

4) You avoided the question. Do YOU think KSM was evil?
 
Ysidro said:
Empathizing is one of those things ebil libruls do, not right-thinking manly men American patriots with beer in their veins and apple pie in their hearts.
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And blood in their eye.
 
BeAChooser said:
That was quite illuminating.

1) Good for you. You are one of the few on your side of this issue to join me. Now what will you think if Obama doesn't release the documents? Could that refusal be an indication that the CIA was right?

2) You don't think murder is dehumanizing?

3) Why do you claim #3 is a false dichotomy? As posed the two possibilities are mutually exclusive. And you must pick one.

4) You avoided the question. Do YOU think KSM was evil?
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So all you have is more questions?

I answered yours now you answer mine.

Do you believe in witches?
 
tsig said:
So you are claiming that the only source of reliable information comes from torturing your enemy?
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No. What I said is that under the time constraints available in some situations, waterboarding (and other enhanced interrogation methods) may be the only way of eliciting accurate information in a timely (i.e., useful) manner.

According to the CIA, some of the information obtained from the 3 terrorists was urgently needed and some of it actually prevented a terrorist plot that was just days from occurring when it was stopped. Had they relied on conventional methods, that attack would likely have occurred on schedule, killing many people. Now of course, that's just what the CIA claimed. Only Obama can tell us whether that's true and so far he's refused to do that. :D
 
BeAChooser said:
No. What I said is that under the time constraints available in some situations, waterboarding (and other enhanced interrogation methods) may be the only way of eliciting accurate information in a timely (i.e., useful) manner.

According to the CIA, some of the information obtained from the 3 terrorists was urgently needed and some of it actually prevented a terrorist plot that was just days from occurring when it was stopped. Had they relied on conventional methods, that attack would likely have occurred on schedule, killing many people. Now of course, that's just what the CIA claimed. Only Obama can tell us whether that's true and so far he's refused to do that. :D
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So the evidence is something that never happened?
 
BeAChooser said:
Not in all cases.



And the relevance of that to this thread?
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Many people confessed to being witches under torture. If you think torture produces truth then you you should believe in witches.

But you dodged the question quite nicely didn't you?
 
Oh god, not another guy who read the cliff notes for Sun Tzu and thinks he's discovered something profound.
 
Drysdale said:
Just to play devil's advoacate here and attempt to not derail.

How bout...Since it's been agreed that abortion experts cannot come to a consensus as to whether it's a baby or not, should we not ban abortion?
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Torture is about the treatment of people. Fetus's aren't people.
 
It looks to me as if the argument from the pro-torture side is that there is no evidence that water-boarding works because Obama is hiding it. I think the fact that people have been water-boarded to confess to witchcraft shows that water-boarding is an unreliable interrogation method. Also, the claim that it's not physically painful is just wrong. Water-boarding is painful.
 
thaiboxerken said:
It looks to me as if the argument from the pro-torture side is that there is no evidence that water-boarding works because Obama is hiding it. I think the fact that people have been water-boarded to confess to witchcraft shows that water-boarding is an unreliable interrogation method. Also, the claim that it's not physically painful is just wrong. Water-boarding is painful.
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Who's placing rocks on people? Is that in the memos that have'nt been released?

Anyway, there's some other thread I think addressing this, but it also seems appropriate here.

First,what is the definition of torture?

I personally dont consider waterboarding torture. I consider rockpiling,pulling teeth,fingernails,removing appendages, etc,etc torture.

But ok, why is'nt all correspondence regarding this released? Maybe we'd have a better idea to the OP.

I think most people know why, it was an effort to score political points.

Look,we are good. Bush was bad.
Did'nt work though huh?
 
Bill Thompson said:
The Libs were demanding that we revise our views on torture after 9-11 because it would be worth it to prevent another terrorist attack.
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Source?

Bill Thompson said:
I think the CIA admits that they only waterboarded two persons. And you cannot argue with success. I do not see planes flying into any more buildings.
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Lisa: By your logic I could claim that this rock keeps tigers away.
Homer: Oh, how does it work?
Lisa: It doesn't work.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: It's just a stupid rock.
Homer: Uh-huh.
Lisa: But I don't see any tigers around, do you?
[Homer thinks of this, then pulls out some money]
Homer: Lisa, I want to buy your rock.
 
Drysdale said:
Again,that's your view. In many people's view they are.
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Even for people who think a fetus is a person, abortion does not fit the definition of torture. Torture is defined as the intentional infliction of severe pain by an agent of the government on a person in his custody or control for the purpose of getting information, a confession or as punishment.

Abortion--even if you think the fetus is a person--doesn't fit on several points.
 
thaiboxerken said:
It looks to me as if the argument from the pro-torture side is that there is no evidence that water-boarding works because Obama is hiding it. I think the fact that people have been water-boarded to confess to witchcraft shows that water-boarding is an unreliable interrogation method. Also, the claim that it's not physically painful is just wrong. Water-boarding is painful.
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I tend to agree, but it's not even necessary to prove that there is physical pain in waterboarding for it to be torture. The definition of torture (in both the CAT and the US code) specifically allows for the infliction of severe mental pain as being torture.

In the US Code, one form of that pain is defined as that caused by the "threat of eminent death". It could be torture to pretend like you're going to execute a prison without causing him any physical pain whatsoever (perhaps injecting him with a mild sedative, or blindfolding him against a wall and shooting him with a firing squad where all the guns shoot blanks--or even where they all intentionally miss).

Waterboarding certainly qualifies. The whole point of it is to make the person think (or feel) as if he is about to die.

Sorry--I keep replying to issues that are really OT for this thread.
 
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