Effectiveness of Torture

[tsig]

There is certainty in few things in life. Yet you still get out of bed each morning. I think your response is simply another attempt to avoid answering a very simple question that says a lot about your understanding of morality ... that says something you apparently don't want people to see.

You are the one proposing the scenario where we have to obtain info by means of "brief pain and discomfort inflicted under the close monitoring of a doctor".

If you don't know with certainty that the man has the info then how can you inflict "brief pain and discomfort under the close monitoring of a doctor".

 

[BeAChooser]

How would you know beforehand that "Inflicting a little TEMPORARY pain and discomfort on a prisoner one knows to be evil" would give you that info?

I said MIGHT. We went over this issue previously. You're just as desperate now to avoid answering a very simple question as you were then.

You seem really hung up on that evil thing.

The concept of evil is at the very foundation of the concept of morality. Which is why you object to *torture*. You are the one hung up on evil my friend. You seem to think inflicting a little pain or discomfort on one person in the hope of saving thousands of lives is as evil as not doing that even though you then know that thousands of lives will likely be lost as a result.

It always helps to dehumanize your enemy

And don't you dehumanize those thousands of lives that will be lost because you refuse to apply a little temporary pain and discomfort to one evil person to save them? Or do you think the rights of KSM to be free from temporary pain and discomfort transcend the right of those thousands to remain alive? Or perhap you think men like KSM aren't really evil at all? Perhaps you believe in their cause?

 

[corplinx]

If you don't know with certainty that the man has the info then how can you inflict "brief pain and discomfort under the close monitoring of a doctor".

With KSM, there is value in knowing that he had no knowledge of any plots in progress considering his position in the network. Knowing when an asset like KSM is no longer valuable to you is a good thing, since after his tribunal he will most likely be executed.

 

[tsig]

Perhaps you haven't paid attention to the thread or read a description of what waterboarding does in regards to mental state. Come back when you have. We can't be catching people up everytime someone new joins the thread and asks "why would it work/be effective?".

You have time to post "We can't be catching people up everytime someone new joins the thread and asks "why would it work/be effective?" but no links?

(I've read the whole thing)

 

[BeAChooser]

Oh, cut the stupid black and white thinking. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Depends on what you mean by "work".

I'm the not one with the black and white thinking here. You're the one who insists we not waterboard under any circumstances. You're the one who seems afraid to have Obama release the only material that can resolve the question of how effective waterboarding and the other enhanced interrogation methods have been at eliciting information that other methods did not elicit. So "grow up", SM.

And your accusation of political motivation makes pasture pizza look appetizing. You know nothing of my motivations.

I can only base my assessment on your behavior. And for some reason you seem to be dead set against asking Obama to disclose the only material that might resolve the OP's question. And if I can take the liberty of modifying the statement by Leahy that I quoted earlier, when a person fails to demand information that is relevant to a matter, one might presume that's because the person thinks the information is negative and not helpful to his cause.

 

[BeAChooser]

If it is just "brief pain and discomfort inflicted under the close monitoring of a doctor" then why is it you think it is so effective?

Don't you know anything about waterboarding? Or are you just commenting from a foundation of ignorance?

 

[BeAChooser]

If you don't know with certainty that the man has the info then how can you inflict "brief pain and discomfort under the close monitoring of a doctor".

Those reports that Obama is refusing to release will tell you.

 

[tsig]

I said MIGHT. We went over this issue previously. You're just as desperate now to avoid answering a very simple question as you were then.



The concept of evil is at the very foundation of the concept of morality. Which is why you object to *torture*. You are the one hung up on evil my friend. You seem to think inflicting a little pain or discomfort on one person in the hope of saving thousands of lives is as evil as not doing that even though you then know that thousands of lives will likely be lost as a result.



And don't you dehumanize those thousands of lives that will be lost because you refuse to apply a little temporary pain and discomfort to one evil person to save them? Or do you think the rights of KSM to be free from temporary pain and discomfort transcend the right of those thousands to remain alive? Or perhap you think men like KSM aren't really evil at all? Perhaps you believe in their cause?

So now we're down to the ultimate slander. If i don't agree with you then I must be the enemy.

 

[tsig]

With KSM, there is value in knowing that he had no knowledge of any plots in progress considering his position in the network. Knowing when an asset like KSM is no longer valuable to you is a good thing, since after his tribunal he will most likely be executed.

KSM was actually a human and not an asset. If you want to prevent another 911 you had better understand the enemy.

 

[tsig]

Don't you know anything about waterboarding? Or are you just commenting from a foundation of ignorance?

Those are your words. You claim on the one hand that it broke the hardened terrorist within minutes then you say it is no big deal.

 

[BeAChooser]

So now we're down to the ultimate slander. If i don't agree with you then I must be the enemy.

I didn't slander you. I've asked you questions and given you the opportunity to answer. All of which you've refused to answer. So if anything, you've slandered yourself by your refusal to do so.

 

[BeAChooser]

If you want to prevent another 911 you had better understand the enemy.

Are you claiming to understand *our* enemy? Do you empathize with him?

 

[BeAChooser]

You claim on the one hand that it broke the hardened terrorist within minutes then you say it is no big deal.

Actually I said no such thing. And you've not only shown that you don't understand waterboarding but you don't understand the nature of *our* enemy. Or the process of interrogation.

 

[tsig]

I didn't slander you. I've asked you questions and given you the opportunity to answer. All of which you've refused to answer. So if anything, you've slandered yourself by your refusal to do so.

The only question that I know you have asked me is "would you be willing to inflict punishment on a helpless individual on the chance he might have info leading to the saving of lives"

The answer is:

No.

 

[tsig]

Are you claiming to understand *our* enemy? Do you empathize with him?

I was referring to "The Art of War"

http://www.sonshi.com/learn.html

Understanding the enemy is a basic principle of any conflict. I'm not sure why you equate understanding with empathizing.

 

[tsig]

Actually I said no such thing. And you've not only shown that you don't understand waterboarding but you don't understand the nature of *our* enemy. Or the process of interrogation.

Then you can enlighten me about the "process of interrogation". I thought it was asking questions and getting answers.

 

[BeAChooser]

The only question that I know you have asked me is "would you be willing to inflict punishment on a helpless individual on the chance he might have info leading to the saving of lives"

Once again, you try your best to avoid answering the question I actually asked you. Quite telling.

And since you apparently just missed the other questions I asked you, I'll repeat them so you can't possibly miss them:

Will you join me in calling on Obama to release the documents and data that will tell us whether the CIA was correct in saying that enhance interrogation methods work ... that they saved many lives and stopped terrorist plots that conventional interrogation methods did not?

Don't you dehumanize those thousands of lives that will be lost because you refuse to apply a little temporary pain and discomfort to one evil person to save them?

Do you think the rights of KSM to be free from temporary pain and discomfort transcend the right of those thousands to remain alive?

Do you think men like KSM aren't really evil at all?

 

[tsig]

Once again, you try your best to avoid answering the question I actually asked you. Quite telling.

And since you apparently just missed the other questions I asked you, I'll repeat them so you can't possibly miss them:

Will you join me in calling on Obama to release the documents and data that will tell us whether the CIA was correct in saying that enhance interrogation methods work ... that they saved many lives and stopped terrorist plots that conventional interrogation methods did not?

Don't you dehumanize those thousands of lives that will be lost because you refuse to apply a little temporary pain and discomfort to one evil person to save them?

Do you think the rights of KSM to be free from temporary pain and discomfort transcend the right of those thousands to remain alive?

Do you think men like KSM aren't really evil at all?

1. Yes i would like the documents released.

2. No

3. false dichotomy.

4. By their own beliefs. No.

 

[BeAChooser]

Understanding the enemy is a basic principle of any conflict.

How trite. How will you understand your enemy if you can't elicit any information from him that he doesn't want you to know? By the way, Sun Tzu lived in an age when torture was the real thing. And he expressed his deep awareness that foreknowledge is a critical factor for success in war and that foreknowledge cannot be elicited from spirits. It comes from people.

I'm not sure why you equate understanding with empathizing.

Because Obama does, I naturally assumed you do, too.

 

[Ysidro]

I was referring to "The Art of War"

http://www.sonshi.com/learn.html

Understanding the enemy is a basic principle of any conflict. I'm not sure why you equate understanding with empathizing.

Empathizing is one of those things ebil libruls do, not right-thinking manly men American patriots with beer in their veins and apple pie in their hearts.