[Ed.] U.S. Constitutional Amendments and Faith

Hokulele

Deleterious Slab of Damnation
Hokulele
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This is a thread generated by a discussion started over in Conspiracy Theories (seriously!). Over there, warlexz53 and I started a discussion on which parts of the U.S. Constitution could be considered valid and invalid, and why. Warlexz53 feels that the income tax is invalid, as the founding fathers did not include it in the original draft, and it was added by amendment at a later time. I then asked what criteria should be used to determine which amendments were and were not valid (13th, and 19th respectively). Warlexz53 then suggested that the freedoms granted by a creator are what should be used to determine this. I then posted that the Bible does support the concept of slavery, so why should the 13th amendment prevail.

This thread is meant to further that discussion, as we really have gone beyond the OP in that thread. Warlexz53, please correct me if I missed any points, or misinterpreted your position.
 
This makes me feel like that Geico caveman... what the *^R% are you talking about?
 
JoeEllison said:
This makes me feel like that Geico caveman... what the *^R% are you talking about?
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Sorry, I was trying to summarize a sub-thread from a larger thread that was careening all over the place. Hopefully warlexz53 can come over and clarify his position. For those who want to get caught up quickly, follow this link, and try to focus on the posts he makes, rather than all of the other chatter.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=2887900#post2887900
 
Hokulele said:
Feeling a little feisty, are we? ;)

Anyway, let's let warlexz53 make his point(s) before making a final judgement.


ETA: Dagnabit! I hate it when I put spelling errors in the thread title.
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you seem to be a fan of the extra "E"... :confused:
 
ok..this will be my only post for the night I gotta get up in a few hours for work.

Certainly the founding fathers set up the constitution so that ammendments could me made to it. They didnt make this process very easy, but they did realize that the country would grow and go through many changes. This allowed for the abolishment of slavery and the Civil Rights Act. All these things are great and were neccessary for a healthy progression of our society.

On the issue of taxes and especially the income tax, the founding father's had very very stong opinions about it. A major cause of the revolution was to escape the opressive Bank of England. In the beginning the colonies used money with no interest or debt attached to it. The Bank of England put a stop to that and a revolution ensued. The founding fathers were against big banks especially central banks. They were very vocal about this.

The 16th ammendment and the creation of the Federal Reserve were exactly what the founding father's warned against. Personally I think this ammendment is bad because it enslaves us to the government. The government is for the people by the people, but when you are giving the government this much money and allowing it grow by leaps and bounds by giving it so much money, then you are really just creating a Frankenstein monster.

I believe man was designed by a higher being to be free. Free as a bird. We should not labor 4 months out of the year to give the Federal Reserve the interest that it charges us. This to me is a form of slavery, and when you are giving a private bank all the money it could ever want, bad things can happen. We are human beings, our lives have value.

In reply to your statement about the Bible saying slavery is ok I think the Bible is wrong. The Bible has a lot of good teachings in it, but that is not one of them. I do not think the Bible is the word of God. I think it is the word of man slowly figuring out what God intended for us.

So when we decide on new ammendments we really have to be careful what we are doing. We should really look at history and the mistakes we've made as human beings. I think the founding fathers were some of the smartest and most inspired people ever. Societies do change, but the truths of mankind do not. As long as we recognize this and hold true to it, we will be alright.
 
Hokulele said:
Extra "E"? I really don't mean to sound condescending or offensive, but am I missing something? PM articulett if you would like her to vouch for my credentials.
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You misspelled "amendment" and "judgment" by adding an extra "E to both words.

I'm not particularly sure what you read into that, that would require being vouched for. Are you an English professor?
 
warlexz53 said:
ok..this will be my only post for the night I gotta get up in a few hours for work.

Certainly the founding fathers set up the constitution so that ammendments could me made to it. They didnt make this process very easy, but they did realize that the country would grow and go through many changes. This allowed for the abolishment of slavery and the Civil Rights Act. All these things are great and were neccessary for a healthy progression of our society.

On the issue of taxes and especially the income tax, the founding father's had very very stong opinions about it. A major cause of the revolution was to escape the opressive Bank of England. In the beginning the colonies used money with no interest or debt attached to it. The Bank of England put a stop to that and a revolution ensued. The founding fathers were against big banks especially central banks. They were very vocal about this.

The 16th ammendment and the creation of the Federal Reserve were exactly what the founding father's warned against. Personally I think this ammendment is bad because it enslaves us to the government. The government is for the people by the people, but when you are giving the government this much money and allowing it grow by leaps and bounds by giving it so much money, then you are really just creating a Frankenstein monster.

I believe man was designed by a higher being to be free. Free as a bird. We should not labor 4 months out of the year to give the Federal Reserve the interest that it charges us. This to me is a form of slavery, and when you are giving a private bank all the money it could ever want, bad things can happen. We are human beings, our lives have value.

In reply to your statement about the Bible saying slavery is ok I think the Bible is wrong. The Bible has a lot of good teachings in it, but that is not one of them. I do not think the Bible is the word of God. I think it is the word of man slowly figuring out what God intended for us.

So when we decide on new ammendments we really have to be careful what we are doing. We should really look at history and the mistakes we've made as human beings. I think the founding fathers were some of the smartest and most inspired people ever. Societies do change, but the truths of mankind do not. As long as we recognize this and hold true to it, we will be alright.
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I think gets to my point. You are saying that some parts of the constitution (including amendments) are fine, some are not. Some parts of the Bible are fine, some are not. How do you know which ones apply? For example, there are clauses in the constitution that allow for the call-up of troops in the army. Does this not impinge on freedoms? Term limits and age requirements are part and parcel of the description of the role of the presidency. Are these not restrictions? To use a faith as a basis for determination of governmental roles requires that the application be consistent. If you would accept parts of the constitution (and the Bible) as truth, I would assume that there would be a bit more critical thinking involved in determining which other parts hold or not. Sorry to sound harsh, and if you would prefer to wait until tomorrow to respond, that is fine as well.
 
JoeEllison said:
Maybe you should start by not repeating blatant lies about how much taxes you pay?
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The average person gives 25% of his/her paycheck to the government through an income tax. If my math is correct 25% of 12 is 4. How is this a blatant lie?
 
warlexz53 said:
The average person gives 25% of his/her paycheck to the government through an income tax. If my math is correct 25% of 12 is 4. How is this a blatant lie?
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Because almost none of us pay that much. Plain and simple. You don't pay 25% income tax. I don't pay that much. My wife and I together don't pay that much, and we're WAY above the median income.
 
Hokulele said:
Psst, 25% of 12 is 3. 1/3 is 4. Just saying.
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Jeez, so you just wanna post for me?

I know for a fact that we didn't pay either 25% or 33% in income tax last year. I'd have noticed $25,000-$33,000 in income taxes.
 
warlex, I'll have a lengthier reponse to your post probably after you go to bed, but if you see this, are you planning on voting for Ron Paul.
 
JoeEllison said:
Jeez, so you just wanna post for me?
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Nah, my axe and stack aren't nearly as impressive (although I do have a '69 Strat lurking in the music room).

I know for a fact that we didn't pay either 25% or 33% in income tax last year. I'd have noticed $25,000-$33,000 in income taxes.
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Yeah, that would be fairly noticeable! Since I have my own company, our tax situation is a bit more complicated in terms of figuring out a flat percentage.
 
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