Split Thread [Ed] Personal experiences with gays

[Debaser]

That there are lots of rugged,masculine types in those states who are gay or bi but keep it hid because of rampant homophobia.

I'm sure you valley boys should have realised when he said he wanted a...er...very, very, pale red Wales jersey.

(Caution links to photo of typical gay Welshman, open at your own risk)

 

[quadraginta]

Well he would have to somehow indicate that he was gay. Like I said, in my sample these guys all indicated that they were interested in women, were married, engaged, had girlfriends etc. My margin of error comes in for those that were perhaps putting on some sort of elaborate cover.

Even within recent memory this description would include almost all the men who didn't want people to know that they were gay, which would have been most of them.

When I was growing up being known or even suspected to be gay not only meant someone would have a good chance of being beaten up, it would have meant a near certainty that they would become largely unemployable and generally shunned. No security clearances, thrown out of church, etc., etc.

Your margin of error could very easily be much larger than you imagine. Coming out of the closet is still a pretty big step for many people, even with the progress that has been made in recent decades.

 

[Rasmus]

In my postings, have I came across as though I had something against gays?

Yes.

The reason you come across that way is because your views of how gay people behave and what they are like could have been taken out of a homophobia 101 textbook.

It's all there: Their effeminate behavior, that they influence straight men, that you can tell who's gay from a mile away, that there is a gay "lifestyle", etc. The only one of your soldiers who you think may have been gay : Surprise - he's a problem, he has issues.

Your underlying reasoning is pretty much the same that you could hear from every homophobe, too. They all know how gays are based on the people who's entire being seems to scream "gay" regardless of their actual orientation. They don't know them personally or close, of course. Their social circle always seems suspiciously free from gay people.

No, I don't think you are homophobic - or at least you haven't said anything at all that would suggest that you are. But you'd appear to be homophobic to anyone who's been in this sort of discussion before - and outside of an anonymous Internet forum, a lot of people could never afford to give you the benefit of the doubt.

And the ones who'd meet you are soldiers in an army that to my knowledge still doesn't allow openly gay soldiers to serve, right? Your men cannot *tell* you because they are not allowed to tell. So, yes, it seems entirely reasonably that they would talk about past girlfriends and try to find girls very, very openly.

It works, too. I am not running around hitting on women openly because I am just too shy - and you'd be amazed at the people that conclude I am gay. I know there must be other reasons but I couldn't tell you what they are. Gay people thought I was gay. Heck, I managed to hang out with LGBT groups with both sides being utterly oblivious to the fact that something just went utterly wrong somewhere. (Okay, so I have no eye for that sort of thing at all - it took me a year or so to pick up on the fact that my best friend was gay. She never said anything assuming I knew, and I just never saw her with anyone and - frankly - being unable to give a toss either way never wasted a thought on it.)

 

[bikerdruid]

Well, my personal experience has informed me otherwise. I acknowledge that you guys may have some very different experiences then I have. But, my sample sizes are pretty large, and from those sample sizes I come up with a pretty high confidence level with a very low margin of error. The statistics don't lie

dude...i haven't been around since page three, but you are still spouting the same crap.
from what you have been saying, you would probably guess that the majority of queer men were straight.
most queers are not hairdressers.
most queers are not effeminate.
most queers do not act 'campy'.
most queers look just like most other guys.

your 'gaydar' is utter nonsense.
btw...it often takes one to know one.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

This is part of an interesting internet drama on a gay news site about femmes:

What’s With All the Hostility Masc Gays Aim at Femmes?

Some of my favorites studies on this look into social expectation violation:

College students were asked to express their liking for a male stimulus person who was described as either heterosexual or homosexual and as masculine or feminine. Subjects disliked the homosexual man more than the heterosexual man, regardless of his gender attributes. Subjects did not, however, consistently dislike the feminine man more than the masculine man. The feminine heterosexual man was liked less than the masculine heterosexual man, but the feminine homosexual man was liked more than the masculine homosexual man. These results cast doubt on earlier notions that homosexual people are disliked because of their presumed inappropriate gender attributes. Instead, it appears that homosexual men are disliked even more if they violate the feminine stereotype. Reasons for this effect are proposed.

Linky.

As for the "none of them were gay" argument:

Using in-depth interviews and participant observations, I examine how two groups of heterosexual high school US football players alter differently the construction of heterosexuality and masculinity after joining collegiate cheerleading. First, I show that informants from both groups make masculinity accessible to gay men before next describing how they reconcile heterosexuality with limited forms of same-sex sex. Forty-percent of the heterosexual men I interview confirm engaging in same-sex sex, although they differently frame the requirements for it. I suggest these findings have various meaning for the relationship between sexuality and masculinity, as both groups somewhat strengthen and contest the borders of heterosexuality and masculinity. These findings beckon consideration as to how the relationship among sport, sexuality, and homophobia is changing.

“Being Masculine is not About who you Sleep with...:” Heterosexual Athletes Contesting Masculinity and the One-time Rule of Homosexuality

(Okay, I just love the title )

Of course, I disagree with blindly obeying how our particular culture divvies up traits between two genders.

Oh, and I spoke with a military chaplain once who said that she thought there were more gays in the military than the general population. This is because they are disproportionally rural and lower class, and gay kids are desperate to get away from home. So they turn to the military. She had a lot of interesting things to say about how gays get through the military.

 

[DC]

dude...i haven't been around since page three, but you are still spouting the same crap.
from what you have been saying, you would probably guess that the majority of queer men were straight.
most queers are not hairdressers.
most queers are not effeminate.
most queers do not act 'campy'.
most queers look just like most other guys.

your 'gaydar' is utter nonsense.
btw...it often takes one to know one.

but most hairdressers are queers?

 

[bruto]

So what it boils down to is that everyone who looks gay to you turns out to be gay, but, surprising though it may be to some, that's not an equation, and the reverse is not necessarily true.

 

[Alan]

In an environment where open homosexuality or the suspicions of homosexuality are punishable by discharges or ridicule, do you expect to get a non-distorted view of people's sexual orientations?

 

[Skeptic]

Do you realise that most gay men are not effeminate?

I think his point isn't that most gay men are like that, simply that most gay men he knows are gay are like that.

 

[Alan]

Which he can't know as he doesn't know the sexualities of everybody he knows.

 

[Skeptic]

I didn't say he knows the sexuality of all his acquintances, only that there are some such people.

 

[lionking]

but most hairdressers are queers?

All I can say is that someone I play tennis with is a hairdresser who is a straight as anyone can be, with a wife and three kids. He told me that if he didn't camp it up in the salon he wouldn't have any customers.

I was once told to never get my hair cut by a straight male hairdresser or a gay female hairdresser.

Hey, I'm just the messenger.

 

[BadBoy]

Would it surprise you if atheist-haters are in fact closet atheists ?

ahaa, I handt thought of that. But now you say it, it wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact I'd think that was a more likely scenario. People who are afriad they are losing (or never had) their faith, going OTT in their outward theism

 

[BadBoy]

Sure you were.

Like the story in which your brother was "infected" by gay mannerisms.

Ya, you have to be carefull around gay people, else you might catch gay.

I had a friend who had a friend while I lived in Canada who stopped his 3 year old from dressing up in his friends daughters fairy outfits and makeup incase he caught gay. He really believed that (apparently) and used those words. He was quite homophobic and it was a serious issue for him and the way you should bring up your sons.

 

[Rasmus]

ahaa, I handt thought of that. But now you say it, it wouldn't surprise me at all. In fact I'd think that was a more likely scenario. People who are afriad they are losing (or never had) their faith, going OTT in their outward theism

Yes, and people who had a lot to lose if it was known they were atheists.

In those groups, especially people that fear someone might notice.

It is very similar indeed: Who else would ever come up with the idea that either believe or sexual preferences were a matter of choice other than those who could oh so easily chose to just do what they've always wanted to do?

 

[BadBoy]

Are you acting ignorant on purpose? You know damn well that there is a difference when straight males hug each other and when females hug each other. Also, when a male hugs a female. For example, a female will generally wrap her arms around the guys neck while he wraps his arms around her body. She will generally go to her tip toes as well because females are usually smaller.

And I was referring to guys that hug each other everyday for a general greeting. This is not normal for men. Do you hug your buddies everyday as a greeting in a girly fashion?

priceless, pls keep it coming.

 

[BadBoy]

It is not the norm for dudes to hug each other as a greet as women hug each other as a greeting. There is no fear of a hug from a fellow straight man, but it is simply out of the norm.

So, lets get this straight, you woul fear a hug from a gay dude ? Why, you worried he may try and go for an intimate moment with you?

 

[The Don]

So, lets get this straight, you woul fear a hug from a gay dude ? Why, you worried he may try and go for an intimate moment with you?

Probably because "as any fule kno" gay dudes are just like cats, they can sense that you don't really like them and BAM! they jump on your lap - and cats do more or less the same thing.

I cannot believe that this thread is still going and that Quad4_72 refuses to consider that the reason all the gay people he has spotted exhibit stereotypical behaviour is because he is applying a stereotype to identify them.

 

[Alan]

I didn't say he knows the sexuality of all his acquintances, only that there are some such people.

I had initially missed the part in what you wrote about it being gay men that he *knows to be gay*, but Quad doesn't seem to include that qualifier himself.

 

[Rasmus]

Probably because "as any fule kno" gay dudes are just like cats, they can sense that you don't really like them and BAM! they jump on your lap - and cats do more or less the same thing.

Only Quad didn't say that nor did he confirm it when asked.

I cannot believe that this thread is still going and that Quad4_72 refuses to consider that the reason all the gay people he has spotted exhibit stereotypical behaviour is because he is applying a stereotype to identify them.

Yes, I find that strange, too.

But we shouldn't accuse him of things he's not actually saying if we want him to eventually understand the point.

I don't find it unlikely that gays might make him uncomfortable or something - if just subconsciously, but he has displayed no actual dislike or hatred towards them. Let's give him some credit for that!