(Ed) Hitler's Atheism

[CWL]

Only atheists/godless people do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist/godless

JK, I think it is crucial for this debate that you respond to the above. Is the above consistent with your analysis or not? Is it in fact your whole analysis?

What you have said so far certainly supports that it is. You have for instance already stated that Iran is in your opinion in reality "atheistic" notwithstandinng it being a formally theocratic state.

I will provide another example for you.

After Pizarro's conquest of the Inca Empire, the Inca population was reduced by an estimated five million within a fifty year period. Although Pizarro and the society he came from would be categorized as devout Roman Catholic Christians, was there - in your reasonable opinion - in fact "atheism" at play here?

Why or why not?

 

[headscratcher4]

I will write a longer reply to some of JK's points later when I have more time.

I continue to note that JK has yet to repond to my demonstrative proof that Nazism was not "atheist" movement, indeed, that given Nazi philosophy (and, unlike Marxism, for example), Nazism was completely dependent on a Theistic view of nature. Killing Jews -- ALL JEWS JUST FOR BEING JEWS -- would be an act completely outside of the understanding of an Atheist (note again, Stalin, who killed practically anybody, but people could save themselves by adapting Stalin as their God -- a Jew could not save himself by embracing Hitler or Nazism and becoming a believer in Nazism....).

However, I CWL asks a good, essential question. I believe, historically, there are numerous examples that can be posed that would seem to either directly undercut the assertion (we have no response from JK as to whether it is one that he actually believes) that a diest/theist could not do evil like a "nazi".

In the 4Th Century, The Roman Emperor Theodsius (the Great) ordered not only the ending of all state support for pagan temples and religious institutions, but their closing as well. He essentially decreed that Christianity was not only the state religion, but the only religion that the state would tolerate. Millions of pagans were thus not only cut off from their religion and their culture, but forced to convert to officially sanctioned christian churches in order to function in the official culture. In short, the state would brook no oposition to its official religion. IT would, as it were, have no other gods before it.

This, as much as the "Conversion" of Constintine 50 year earlier, is the foundation of Christian Europe. After Theodosius, pagan worship was limited, secretive, discouraged and persecuted.

This is yet another example of a state, and the official state philosophy (as manifest in the person and the beliefs of the Emperor) essentially decreeing that there will be no other religion/philosophy but that sanctioned by the state and that promotes the state/Emperor's interest.

Is this an atheistic decree? Was Theodosius and the bishops/Pope that advised him Atheists?

If not, why not?

Finally I note, that the way you are arguing this, it isn't about what any individual believes -- i.e. whether it is descernable whether Hitler believed (as an individual) or not -- it come down to how YOU (specifically) JK define it. That isn't a search for truth, in your own terms, that is practically dogmatic atheism (atheism, in this case meaning that no other view, save yours, has any merit now that you've determined what is a fact, what you will accept as fact, and what you are willing to explain and defend).

 

[Jedi Knight]

JK, I think it is crucial for this debate that you respond to the above. Is the above consistent with your analysis or not? Is it in fact your whole analysis?

What you have said so far certainly supports that it is. You have for instance already stated that Iran is in your opinion in reality "atheistic" notwithstandinng it being a formally theocratic state.

I will provide another example for you.

After Pizarro's conquest of the Inca Empire, the Inca population was reduced by an estimated five million within a fifty year period. Although Pizarro and the society he came from would be categorized as devout Roman Catholic Christians, was there - in your reasonable opinion - in fact "atheism" at play here?

Why or why not?

I already answered this numerous times in this very thread. This will be the last time I answer this question.

The German nation was a nation guided by an atheist (Hitler) who was implementing the works of Hegel and Nietzche. The main theme of those two philosophes was that God was dead and the advanced nation-state could only be propelled forward if God was completely removed from all institutions of the state and the people (God is dead).

That is where the "superman" theory comes from because if God is dead, all that is left is man. Man becomes God and the select from man are the "supermen". Hitler's "superman" program (the master race) was a direct correlation of this. That also proved that the German people were a godless people, an atheist mob ready and willing to do godless acts for their new prince (Hitler).

Now, if you are going to respond to this by asking what it means, go read some Hegel and Nietzche first and then come back and debate again.

JK

 

[CWL]

JK,

I am sorry, but as far as I can tell you are not responding to my question. Please read the question regarding the Spaniard's treatment of the Incas more carefully and give it another spin. As Headscrathcer4 is raising questions along the same line, you might also wish to consider his latest post when answering.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Despite all of the facts and evidence that point towards Hitler believing in a god, JK will always believe that Hitler was an atheist. It is JK's contention that only atheists could do the acts that Hitler did. It is also his contention that only an atheist can commit murder as well.

 

[c4ts]

I already answered this numerous times in this very thread. This will be the last time I answer this question.

The German nation was a nation guided by an atheist (Hitler) who was implementing the works of Hegel and Nietzche. The main theme of those two philosophes was that God was dead and the advanced nation-state could only be propelled forward if God was completely removed from all institutions of the state and the people (God is dead).

That is where the "superman" theory comes from because if God is dead, all that is left is man. Man becomes God and the select from man are the "supermen". Hitler's "superman" program (the master race) was a direct correlation of this. That also proved that the German people were a godless people, an atheist mob ready and willing to do godless acts for their new prince (Hitler).

Now, if you are going to respond to this by asking what it means, go read some Hegel and Nietzche first and then come back and debate again.

JK

Nietzche despised Nazis, not to mention Facism as a whole! I don't know about Hegel, I've never read him. Do you seriously think Hitler wanted an army of Nietzche's supermen who could walk barefoot in the snow becuase they thought of nothing but philosophy? If they're only thinkng of philosophy, then they're not thinking of following orders and marching around, are they? Hitler's idea of "superman" was a person of pure aryan descent, someone with blonde hair, blue eyes, and pure Teutonic indestructibility.

 

[Darat]

I already answered this numerous times in this very thread. This will be the last time I answer this question.

The German nation was a nation guided by an atheist (Hitler)

...snip...

Now, if you are going to respond to this by asking what it means, go read some Hegel and Nietzche first and then come back and debate again.

..snip...

Without being picky I assume you mean "Friedrich Nietzsche"? If so I can assure you over the years I have read (in translation) many of his major works including:

The Birth of Tragedy
Daybreak
Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Beyond Good and Evil
On the Genealogy of Morals
The Antichrist
The Will to Power

But how reading these are meant to illuminate why Hitler was not an atheist is beyond me. After all Hitler was only 11 years of age when Nietzsche died so I can't see how Nietzsche could be used to bring any evidence to the table about Hitler's atheism or theism?

Can you please tell me exactly which chapters, passages etc. I should be looking to re-read?

 

[c4ts]

Without being picky I assume you mean "Friedrich Nietzsche"? If so I can assure you over the years I have read (in translation) many of his major works including:

The Birth of Tragedy
Daybreak
Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Beyond Good and Evil
On the Genealogy of Morals
The Antichrist
The Will to Power

But how reading these are meant to illuminate why Hitler was not an atheist is beyond me. After all Hitler was only 11 years of age when Nietzsche died so I can't see how Nietzsche could be used to bring any evidence to the table about Hitler's atheism or theism?

Can you please tell me exactly which chapters, passages etc. I should be looking to re-read?

I think it was "The Will to Power" where he says Facism encourages the slave mentality, but it may have been "the Antichrist."

 

[Nova Land]

I already answered this numerous times in this very thread.

If this is your answer, I'm puzzled what the question you are responding to is.

The German nation was a nation guided by an atheist (Hitler) who was implementing the works of Hegel and Nietzche.

That tells who was the leader of Germany (Hitler) and what you think his philosophy was based on (the works of Hegel and Nietsche). That's not what CWL asked about.

The main theme of those two philosophes was that God was dead and the advanced nation-state could only be propelled forward if God was completely removed from all institutions of the state and the people (God is dead).

That explains Hegelism and Nietschism, again not what CWL asked about.

Are you trying to say that Hegelism/Nietschism is equivalent to atheism? That H/N is a form of atheism? That atheism is derived from H/N? I am trying to understand what you are saying, but your point is not clear.

That is where the "superman" theory comes from because if God is dead, all that is left is man. Man becomes God and the select from man are the "supermen".

This tells us where you think Hitler's beliefs came from. It tells us some of what you believe Hitler's beliefs were. It still does not tell us how you define atheism -- which is the question CWL and others of us have been asking.

Now, if you are going to respond to this by asking what it means, go read some Hegel and Nietzche first

If you think it will help understand the points you are making, I'll be glad to. The nearest library to me is 12 miles away and is a local 1-room affair, but I hope to be making a trip to a large library next week-end.

Since time is finite, I won't have time to read all the writings of either of these men during that trip. Could you give me page references for about 25 pages or so from the works of each that you think are most relevant to the point you are trying to make, to serve as a starting point for me?

Once I get started looking something up I tend to get curious, and one thing leads to another, so if you give me a good starting point I will likely read a fair amount more. But I would like you to specify some portions which you think relate directly to what you are saying, so I don't spend all my library time reading sections of them entirely unrelated to what you are talking about.

If 25 pages or so from each is unreasonably small, feel free to specify larger sections, and I'll do my best to read what you recommend.

(If you'd like to post some selections from these writings that you think are especially relevant, that could be helpful as well. I can then get a taste of what it is you are talking about here and be able to appreciate it more when I read it in longer form at the library.)

 

[thaiboxerken]

It's hardly an original Neitchze idea to make an army of supermen. Generals have dreamed of supermen since the dawn of war. JK's notions absolutely fail in the eye of reason. The simple fact is that JK and other theists want to believe Hitler was atheist because, in their minds, atheism is equivalent to the "evil" that Hitler performed.

It is the contention of these certain theists that all atheists are evil and all evil people are atheist.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Without being picky I assume you mean "Friedrich Nietzsche"? If so I can assure you over the years I have read (in translation) many of his major works including:

The Birth of Tragedy
Daybreak
Thus Spoke Zarathustra
Beyond Good and Evil
On the Genealogy of Morals
The Antichrist
The Will to Power

But how reading these are meant to illuminate why Hitler was not an atheist is beyond me. After all Hitler was only 11 years of age when Nietzsche died so I can't see how Nietzsche could be used to bring any evidence to the table about Hitler's atheism or theism?

Can you please tell me exactly which chapters, passages etc. I should be looking to re-read?

In the final day before Berlin fell there was a very specific event that took place inside the city. Do you know what that event was? The whole city encountered it.

JK

 

[Jedi Knight]

It's hardly an original Neitchze idea to make an army of supermen. Generals have dreamed of supermen since the dawn of war. JK's notions absolutely fail in the eye of reason. The simple fact is that JK and other theists want to believe Hitler was atheist because, in their minds, atheism is equivalent to the "evil" that Hitler performed.

It is the contention of these certain theists that all atheists are evil and all evil people are atheist.

Was Stalin evil?

JK

 

[c4ts]

It is the contention of these certain theists that all atheists are evil and all evil people are atheist.

Here is how the minds of certain theists appear to work:

1.) "I am told Hitler was evil. Therefore Hitler must have been evil."
2.) "I am told Hitler was an atheist. Therefore Hitler must have been an atheist."
3.) "My religion is good, therfore it is opposed to evil. Therefore evil is opposed to my relgion."
4.) "Atheism says there is no god. That is opposing my religion. Evil is opposed to my religion. Therefore atheism is evil."
5.) "Atheism is evil, therefore evil is atheism."
6.) "Hitler was an atheist because he was evil. Becuase atheism is evil, it must be true."
7.) "Hitler was evil because he was an atheist. Becuase evil is atheism, it must be true."

And if you want to add two steps:

8.) "Nietzche said 'God is dead' and wrote a book on the Antichrist. Nietzche was opposed to my religion. Hitler was also opposed to my religion. Because atheism is evil, Nietzche was as evil as Hitler."
9.) "Nietzche was German. Hitler was German. Nietzche was evil and an atheist. Hitler was evil and an atheist. Therefore the two collaborated."

Welcome to the tyrrany of belief. 2 + 2 = 5 whenever God says it is!

 

[c4ts]

In the final day before Berlin fell there was a very specific event that took place inside the city. Do you know what that event was? The whole city encountered it.

JK

Nietzche was long dead before that day. Unless Zarathustra showed up or something, you must explain.

 

[Jedi Knight]

Nietzche was long dead before that day. Unless Zarathustra showed up or something, you must explain.

Sorry but Nietzche has nothing to do with that question. I think that the communication break-down in the thread now is simply due to the lack of knowledge of the history of the 3rd Reich.

Maybe I will post again in this thread a few days once the noise quiets and there is less uninformed noise.

JK

 

[thaiboxerken]

Was Stalin evil?

JK

Yes, and he was atheist. What is your point? Stalin is just one guy. Most atheists are not like Stalin just like most god believers are not witch-hunters (these days).

 

[thaiboxerken]

I think that the communication break-down in the thread now is simply due to the lack of knowledge of the history of the 3rd Reich.

What he's really stating is that we lack the belief in the christian revisionist history that has been painted of the Nazi party and Hitler's religious beliefs.

 

[c4ts]

Sorry but Nietzche has nothing to do with that question. I think that the communication break-down in the thread now is simply due to the lack of knowledge of the history of the 3rd Reich.

Maybe I will post again in this thread a few days once the noise quiets and there is less uninformed noise.

JK

Take the time to read the entire Mein Kamph before you return, then see if you still think Hitler was an atheist.

 

[CWL]

Maybe I will post again in this thread a few days once the noise quiets and there is less uninformed noise.

JK

Here we go...

What exactly do you mean by "uninformed noise" JK?

In the polite spirit of this moderated thread I kindly urge you to reply to the questions that have been put to you instead of dodging them.

Why is it you always see it fit to abandon a thread once it gets a little too hot for you to handle?

 

[Jedi Knight]

If this is your answer, I'm puzzled what the question you are responding to is.
That tells who was the leader of Germany (Hitler) and what you think his philosophy was based on (the works of Hegel and Nietsche). That's not what CWL asked about.
That explains Hegelism and Nietschism, again not what CWL asked about.

Are you trying to say that Hegelism/Nietschism is equivalent to atheism? That H/N is a form of atheism? That atheism is derived from H/N? I am trying to understand what you are saying, but your point is not clear.
This tells us where you think Hitler's beliefs came from. It tells us some of what you believe Hitler's beliefs were. It still does not tell us how you define atheism -- which is the question CWL and others of us have been asking.
If you think it will help understand the points you are making, I'll be glad to. The nearest library to me is 12 miles away and is a local 1-room affair, but I hope to be making a trip to a large library next week-end.

Since time is finite, I won't have time to read all the writings of either of these men during that trip. Could you give me page references for about 25 pages or so from the works of each that you think are most relevant to the point you are trying to make, to serve as a starting point for me?

Once I get started looking something up I tend to get curious, and one thing leads to another, so if you give me a good starting point I will likely read a fair amount more. But I would like you to specify some portions which you think relate directly to what you are saying, so I don't spend all my library time reading sections of them entirely unrelated to what you are talking about.

If 25 pages or so from each is unreasonably small, feel free to specify larger sections, and I'll do my best to read what you recommend.

(If you'd like to post some selections from these writings that you think are especially relevant, that could be helpful as well. I can then get a taste of what it is you are talking about here and be able to appreciate it more when I read it in longer form at the library.)

You weren't paying attention, Nova. This is what he quoted:

Originally posted by Aardvark_DK
Only atheists/godless people do evil things
Hitler did evil things
Therefore Hitler was an atheist/godless

......and that was what I was replying to. When I quoted that post it didn't pull it all up. That just goes to show that there is a huge misunderstanding of what I am saying. This is not due to me, it is due to lack of knowledge of the reference material and history regarding Hitler's atheism.

I do not think there is anyone qualified to debate me on this topic, the more I think about it. You and Headscratcher come close to figuring out the history but the other contributors have no understanding of it and are making this supposedly moderated debate rather marginal as most debates on this forum seem to spiral.

I asked what happened in Berlin in the last few days before the city fell and someone mentioned that Nietzche was dead long before that happened--that had nothing to do with my question and simply illustrates that some people have no clue about this topic.

Then someone else mentioned that Hitler was 11 years old when Nietzche died so how could Hitler "possibly" know him--another laughable observation. It is like saying that Plato died two thousand years ago so how could you know him Nova?

Hitler's reich picked up the works of Hegel and Nietzche and put them into action. Did Stalin know Marx? No. How could Stalin possibly be connected to Marx if he didn't "know" him? That is hilarious for people to even use that line of reasoning because it is like saying that a political theory is lost to "everyone" that didn't know the philosoph "personally". Writings and ideas live forever. You do not need to know the people personally that created those ideas and those ideas outlived the authors and Hitler and they will outlive you and I.

Don't be tempted to fall into the trap of the non-intellectuals Nova, especially in defense of some ideas that you have. I have presented an opinion about Hitler. It is my opinion and many people share it. It doesn't have anything to do with me and everything to do with the information provided based upon historical fact.

If the people contributing to this topic can't pull from history to counter my arguments that Hitler was an atheist, don't bother posting. You can, but it is just laughable and makes me consider that I am just wasting my time debating on a topic that could be interesting but spoiled from the new participants that have no clue about the topic nor history in general. I suspect that there are some atheists who are now posting to defend their religion, as a Christian would defend his religion if someone showed up at his church to provide information about a topic that made the Christian feel uncomfortable.

If individuals can't get past their own inner religious lusts (atheism), this thread is going nowhere.

JK