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Dunkirk... was it that bad a German idea?

A double agent is one that has ' turned' and is working for the people he is supposed to be spying on. Look up 'Operation Double Cross' British Intelligence 'turned' all the German agents that were in the UK and used them to feed the German s false information. Those that weren't turned were executed or imprisoned.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
A double agent is one that has ' turned' and is working for the people he is supposed to be spying on. Look up 'Operation Double Cross' British Intelligence 'turned' all the German agents that were in the UK and used them to feed the German s false information. Those that weren't turned were executed or imprisoned.
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Right, but exactly what is a double double agent?
 
Tolls said:
The events of Market Garden really don't require any betrayal at all.
The Germans didn't react like they were prepared for it.
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You may be right about that. It looks like it was known that there were German troops in the area but it was hushed up and that it was another cock up like Dunkirk:

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/184228-battle-arnhem-anniversary-commemoration/

In the chair at the first-ever “Bilderberg conference” in 1954 was Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, a former SS officer who was in on Market Garden's planning, peering over Monty’s and Horrocks' shoulders. Many believe he was instrumental in sabotaging the Allies’ efforts at Arnhem 10 years before.

The Prince was the British Army’s Dutch liaison officer for this planned liberation of his adopted country. Bernhard’s trusted agent for Market Garden was Christiaan Lindemans, codename “King Kong”. So why the questions about whether Prince Bernhard was actually still a Nazi? Because when he was smuggled across into German lines on Thursday 14th September, Lindemans deliberately took everything he knew of the Dutch underground resistance network and the Market Garden plans straight to German Army intelligence. Bernhard's star player was a double agent.

Those who questioned whether it was wise to trust a former German aristocrat and SS officer, which Bernhard was, in that Dutch liaison role would have been reminded that King George VI himself had instructed Naval Intelligence officer Ian Fleming to give him security clearance. But like something from a plot which Fleming would later pen as author of the James Bond thrillers, other Allied forces, specifically the US Army and Royal Navy, refused to allow Bernhard anywhere near their secret facilities.
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Henri McPhee said:
You may be right about that. It looks like it was known that there were German troops in the area but it was hushed up and that it was another cock up like Dunkirk:

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/184228-battle-arnhem-anniversary-commemoration/
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I thought that
Henri McPhee said:
I don't know enough about it all this to pontificate about Holland
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but you seem to have learned enough now to join Tony Gosling in his RT pontifications
exposing the secret power of the Bank for International Settlements (BIS) and élite Bilderberg Conferences where the dark forces of corporations, media, banks and royalty conspire to accumulate wealth and power through extortion and war.​
Gosling by the way indulges in other initiatives like
This forum currently hosted by www.911forum.org.uk aims to provide access to discussion forums and other online media related to political, economic, social or military events arising from the so-called ‘War on Terror’. The purpose of this forum is to provide a safe, respectful, positive space for discussion and information sharing. The forum is intended for the use of people who accept the need for a reinvestigation of 9/11 and the war on terror. Those who believe no new investigation is required should only post in the critics corner.​
I just love that last sentence.

ETA Gosling extols his own resolve and heroism in the face of the Judaeo-Masonic conspiracy, in wikispooks
Has had life threatened by the Jewish Defence League but will never stop pursuing the truth about the mainly UK/US Israeli Masonic cult of greed until the day I die.

Europe and America are run now by a criminal elite of banksters and blackmailable 'dirtied up' VIPaedophiles who are still avoiding prosecution.​

Your contributions belong in the CT threads.
 
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Henri McPhee said:
You may be right about that. It looks like it was known that there were German troops in the area but it was hushed up and that it was another cock up like Dunkirk:

https://www.rt.com/op-edge/184228-battle-arnhem-anniversary-commemoration/
In the chair at the first-ever “Bilderberg conference” in 1954 was Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands, a former SS officer who was in on Market Garden's planning, peering over Monty’s and Horrocks' shoulders. Many believe he was instrumental in sabotaging the Allies’ efforts at Arnhem 10 years before.
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Really? I'm far of a fan of prince Bernhard, and there's a lot of criticism possible - foremost the Lockheed affair - but suggesting he knowingly betrayed the operation take the cake.

As to his SS membership: he had been a member of the Reiter-SS, the SS Cavalry Corps. That was established in 1933 by simply incorporating with one stroke of the pen existing horse riding clubs, to which virtually all nobles belonged. He had also been a member of the NSKK, the National-Socialist Motor Corps. Gee, the guy loved fast cars.
 
Again, someone would have to show that there was something unusual the Germans did in the days leading up to the para drops to indicate they had foreknowledge.
 
There is a bit about Dunkirk in that The Ultra Secret book by Winterbotham in 1974:

Without in any way detracting from the epic of Dunkirk, I believe that if Hitler had let his victory-drunk armies and air forces loose there would have been little for the small boats to pick up. Did Hitler let the BEF go home, having stripped them of all their armour? We now know that soon after Hitler ordered his tanks to stop closing in, he addressed his military staffs in France. According to one German general who was present, Hitler told them exactly what he had told me in 1934: it was necessary that the great civilization Britain had brought to the world should continue to exist and that all he wanted from Britain was that she should acknowledge Germany's position on the continent. He went on to say that his aim was to make peace with Britain on a basis which she would regard as compatible with her honour to accept. All his efforts, as we know, were rejected. This time he had misjudged the mood of the British people.
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Tolls said:
Why do you persist in relying on that book?
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Especially when it contains this gem:


if Hitler had let his victory-drunk armies and air forces loose there would have been little for the small boats to pick up.
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Perhaps Henri could enlighten us as to when the Halt order applied to the Luftwaffe? At what point did they suspend attacks on the pocket for any reason other than weather?

There is also the point that's been repeated endless times with Henri apparently ignoring it that the halt order only applied to the panzers. Infantry and artillery attacks continued unabated.

And the rest of the quote is questionable at best:

According to one German general who was present, Hitler told them exactly what he had told me in 1934: it was necessary that the great civilization Britain had brought to the world should continue to exist and that all he wanted from Britain was that she should acknowledge Germany's position on the continent. He went on to say that his aim was to make peace with Britain on a basis which she would regard as compatible with her honour to accept. All his efforts, as we know, were rejected. This time he had misjudged the mood of the British people.
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An unattributed second hand version of what someone claimed Hitler said, that just so happens to shift blame for the failure to stop the British at Dunkirk onto Hitler's interference, rather than say the officers actually in charge of the fighting.
 
Garrison said:
Especially when it contains this gem:



Perhaps Henri could enlighten us as to when the Halt order applied to the Luftwaffe? At what point did they suspend attacks on the pocket for any reason other than weather?

There is also the point that's been repeated endless times with Henri apparently ignoring it that the halt order only applied to the panzers. Infantry and artillery attacks continued unabated.

And the rest of the quote is questionable at best:



An unattributed second hand version of what someone claimed Hitler said, that just so happens to shift blame for the failure to stop the British at Dunkirk onto Hitler's interference, rather than say the officers actually in charge of the fighting.
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I'm inclined to believe Winterbotham about all this. He was in the know. I agree that in recent years the role of the RAF at Dunkirk has become more clear. At the time it was mostly grumbles from the soldiers about where was the British air force in all this, when in fact the RAF fighting was taking place well out of sight of the soldiers on the ground.

There is a bit of background to this at this website:

https://www.brentbaxterbooks.com/the-role-of-the-raf-in-operation-dynamo-the-miracle-of-dunkirk/
 
Henri McPhee said:
I'm inclined to believe Winterbotham about all this. He was in the know.
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Then why did he make a statement that was clearly wrong? At no point did anything bar bad weather prevent Luftwaffe attacks there was no point at which Hitler didn't turn his 'airforces loose'. Winterbotham is factually wrong on this and provides no source for his other claim. Even if he is quoting the German General accurately he offers nothing to corroborate the statement. You choose to believe this sourceless assertion because it suits your similarly unsupported claims.

As to the rest of your post it appears to be addressing a question no one asked.
 
Craig B said:
Do you believe that "action-packed novels" are unreliable sources of authentic factual information?
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Yes. Is there any argument about that?

(I tried coming up with a witty answer or a joke, like Dave, but failed).
 
That's lack of vision. Winterbotham in his The Ultra Secret book in 1974 was probably right about Dunkirk when he wrote:

I had met Hitler for the first time in 1934. I had felt that his desperate desire for peace with Britain was no bluff. I knew that above all he genuinely feared the British as an enemy, and now that France was virtually finished, he obviously wanted peace in the West, before he set out on the great mission that possessed his soul - if he had one - the destruction of Communist Russia. I believed he was deliberately letting the BEF go home. As far as we know, Hitler never issued any further orders for his tanks to advance. War against England had swung for the moment from the military to the political arena. I felt sure myself that Hitler had argued that if he bottled up the BEF in prisoner-of-war camps, they would be a running sore and might well jeopardise the peace which he believed he could now get from Britain. Lord Gort had been given the breather he needed and resolutely brought the BEF to the beaches of Dunkirk.
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What this guy believed and what is known to be historical fact are different hings entirely.
 
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