Dunkirk... was it that bad a German idea?

[rjh01]

German Intelligence was woeful right through the war.

Look at 'Operation Double Cross' for example.

Every agent sent to the UK was captured and most were 'turned' and used to feed fake information to the Germans.
Some were even decorated by Hitler for their services.

They contributed massively to the war effort. Germany took all their information at face value and believed everything.
Some real info was sent with the fake and on several occasion obviously outrageous information was sent just to 'test the waters' but it was all lapped uo eagerly.

Brilliant definitive book. Double Cross (subtitle The true story of the D-Day Spies) by Ben Macintyre

The star was Juan Pujol, code-named Garbo was a Spaniard living in the UK and claiming to the Germans he was operating a network of 24 spies. He fed massive amounts of fake info. He wrote his own book about his exploits in the 80s. Garbo: The Personal Story of the Most Successful Double Agent Ever.

To add insult to the above you can add in mincemeat. The Germans got hold of a dead British officer holding highly classified information about the coming invasion of Scilly or was that Greece? The Germans, as a result of this information diverted resources to Greece and to Northern Scilly. The invasion came in Southern Scilly. This saved many British lives.
The above is what most people know. Later, after D-day, the Germans got hold of REAL information obtained in a similar way. The had enough sense not to be fooled twice. If the Germans had accepted the information it would have cost many British lives.

 

[Henri McPhee]

There was also the Germans Admiral Canaris, who had the top job in German military intelligence for a time, and Colonel Oster who were in touch with MI6 during the war. That must have been high grade military intelligence, if not coding information. Colonel Oster provided information about the German attack through the Ardennes, which ended at Dunkirk, but he was not believed. All this is not given much publicity in TV documentaries now perhaps because their descendants might still not be too popular in Germany:

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

 

[ddt]

There was also the Germans Admiral Canaris, who had the top job in German military intelligence for a time, and Colonel Oster who were in touch with MI6 during the war. That must have been high grade military intelligence, if not coding information. Colonel Oster provided information about the German attack through the Ardennes, which ended at Dunkirk, but he was not believed. All this is not given much publicity in TV documentaries now perhaps because their descendants might still not be too popular in Germany:

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Wilhelm_Canaris

Oster also gave the date for "Fall Gelb" to Sas, the military attaché at the Dutch embassy in Berlin. However, as the date was repeatedly postponed, Sas was not believed by the Dutch government by the time the actual invasion came.

 

[dudalb]

Is that the Higham who fabricated his sources and evidence?

Like the book on Errol Flynn that accused him of being a Nazi Spy where he himself said ""I don't have a document that says A, B, C, D, E, Errol Flynn was a Nazi agent, but I have pieced together a mosaic that proves that he is."

His claims were later identified as fabrications, substantiated by viewing the FBI documents, which Higham altered for his book rather than quoted verbatim.

He was also accused and proved to have fabricated evidence in support of the claims in some of his other biographies.

A very reliable source.

Yeah, Henry wrecked his creditbility when he cited Higham as reliable source.
Higham was a cheap sensationalist.
Among his other claims, he said that Cary Grant and Orson Welles had an affair, something totally undocumented by other then gossip.
Anyway, the "Hitler let the British Army Escape as a good will gesture to Britain" has been througly discredited by historians. In the end, the decision not to press the attack on the Dunkirk Pocket was based on Military reasons;the main being the German Army simply needed a pause to rest, do repairs and maintenance and regroup afther their blitzkrieg across Northren France. And Goering was still riding high with Hitler,and Hitler believed Goering's claims that the Luftwaffe could not only prevent any large scale evacuation from Dunkirk, but pound the BEF into surrender by itself. When Goering failed ,it was the first rift between Hitler and Goering.

 

[HansMustermann]

I didn't say it was good will. I said it had the side effect of having to fight only the French as the Brits were retreating, which made taking France a lot easier than if they had forced the Brits to fight for their lives too.

 

[Henri McPhee]

Yeah, Henry wrecked his creditbility when he cited Higham as reliable source.
Higham was a cheap sensationalist.

I have always believed that Cary Grant was in our Secret Service, like Noel Coward who was pals with the Duke of Kent. I'm not terribly sure what he did, or what he ever found out, or if it had anything to do with Dunkirk, or if Charles Higham might have been involved as well. It looks as though Higham was originally British and died in 2012. There is not much information on the internet about it which concentrates on Cary Grant's film career. I agree it's gossip which is something useful in any police investigation. There is a bit on the internet about the matter:

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2005/may/21/highereducation.fiction

 

[zooterkin]

Later, after D-day, the Germans got hold of REAL information obtained in a similar way. The had enough sense not to be fooled twice. If the Germans had accepted the information it would have cost many British lives.

I haven't heard of that before; have you got a reference?

 

[rjh01]

I haven't heard of that before; have you got a reference?

Here is one example of the Germans refusing to believe real information

https://operationmincemeat.weebly.com/conclusion-and-impact.html

During the D-Day invasions of Normandy, an abandoned craft was confiscated by the Germans. Papers were found revealing future targets of the Allies but the Germans refused to believe them because Operation Mincemeat had struck a devastating blow. Another Operation called Market-Garden nearly ended in disaster. Documents of the Operation were brought along and left behind. The Germans were afraid that this was a decoy just like Operation Mincemeat and deployed troops contary to the valuable information in front of them.

 

[lobosrul5]

Here is one example of the Germans refusing to believe real information

"Another Operation called Market-Garden nearly ended in disaster."

Well it wasn't exactly a triumph.

 

[Henri McPhee]

I have been mystified in the past that the Germans by some strange coincidence had two crack Panzer SS regiments in the Arnhem area, supposedly on rest and refit at the time of that bridge too far business in 1944. Many SOE agents got parachuted into Holland straight into the hands of the Gestapo. The RAF stopped transporting them because several of their planes were shot down at the time. It looks like some British or Dutch traitors to me, though the full facts are probably still secret.

 

[Craig B]

I have been mystified in the past that the Germans by some strange coincidence had two crack Panzer SS regiments in the Arnhem area, supposedly on rest and refit at the time of that bridge too far business in 1944. Many SOE agents got parachuted into Holland straight into the hands of the Gestapo. The RAF stopped transporting them because several of their planes were shot down at the time. It looks like some British or Dutch traitors to me, though the full facts are probably still secret.

The presence of two enemy regiments in an important locality during a battle looks you you like the work of British traitors?

Stalin would no doubt have thought so, and the appropriate confessions would have been obtained to prove him right.

 

[Garrison]

I have been mystified in the past that the Germans by some strange coincidence had two crack Panzer SS regiments in the Arnhem area, supposedly on rest and refit at the time

Where does the 'supposedly come from? What research have you done that would cast doubt on the accepted and well supported history that says they were sent there for refitting?

 

[Hubert Cumberdale]

"Crack" SS Panzer units no less.

Because all SS units are somehow "Crack"?

 

[Henri McPhee]

I don't know enough about it all this to pontificate about Holland, or if it had any connections to Dunkirk, and stuff on the internet. It was all a bit before my time. There is a bit of waffle about the mater at this website. A lot of the documentation seems to have been destroyed:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.war.world-war-ii/XgeC93r03PU

Interesting book. One thing Marks mentions is that a couple of the
captured agents had sent their code words that should have tipped off
their controllers that they had been caught. Apparently the latter were
either careless or over-confident and ignored the hints, continuing to
send further agents into traps set by the Nazis.

I've often wondered how much this had to do with subsequent British
distrust of the Dutch underground. During Market-Garden British
intelligence declined to utilize the resources of the Dutch trying to
report on the situation in Arnhem and elsewhere. That did not help an
already compromised battle.

 

[Garrison]

I don't know enough about it all this to pontificate about Holland

So why imply there is some mystery/conspiracy about why the Panzer were there when you know nothing about the subject? And yet again you post a quote that does nothing to support your suggestion.

 

[Craig B]

Interesting book. One thing Marks mentions is that a couple of the
captured agents had sent their code words that should have tipped off
their controllers that they had been caught. Apparently the latter were
either careless or over-confident and ignored the hints, continuing to
send further agents into traps set by the Nazis.​

Are you suggesting that these captured agents' controllers were traitors working for the Nazis?

 

[Tolls]

The Germans were so prepared for the paras that they had to reorganise one of the panzer divisions which was all set to head off the following day or so by train.

 

[ddt]

I have been mystified in the past that the Germans by some strange coincidence had two crack Panzer SS regiments in the Arnhem area, supposedly on rest and refit at the time of that bridge too far business in 1944. Many SOE agents got parachuted into Holland straight into the hands of the Gestapo. The RAF stopped transporting them because several of their planes were shot down at the time. It looks like some British or Dutch traitors to me, though the full facts are probably still secret.

I don't know enough about it all this to pontificate about Holland, or if it had any connections to Dunkirk, and stuff on the internet. It was all a bit before my time. There is a bit of waffle about the mater at this website. A lot of the documentation seems to have been destroyed:

https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/soc.history.war.world-war-ii/XgeC93r03PU

You're confusing two things.

The first is the Englandspiel. Britain trained Dutch people as resistance agents and dropped them over Holland. One of the first, Huub Lauwers, was captured by chance and the Germans demanded of him to radio messages to Britain. These agents had been instructed to make deliberate errors in their messages. So when the Gestapo demanded that Lauwers send radios to Britain, he complied, and radioed error-free messages, in the expectation that SOE would understand there was something wrong. Nevertheless, SOE continued to drop Dutch agents, who all fell right in the hands of the Germans. This went on from 1941-1943, so it was long over before Market Garden. Why SOE continued to drop Dutch agents has never quite become clear. This article in the Telegraph is maybe the most plausible explanation.

The second question is whether Market Garden was betrayed. There is speculation that the Dutch double agent Christiaan Lindemans alias "King Kong", who had managed to get a position in the staff of prince Bernhard, has done this.

 

[Tolls]

The events of Market Garden really don't require any betrayal at all.
The Germans didn't react like they were prepared for it.

 

[Henri McPhee]

The second question is whether Market Garden was betrayed. There is speculation that the Dutch double agent Christiaan Lindemans alias "King Kong", who had managed to get a position in the staff of prince Bernhard, has done this.

That's interesting information. I'm not terribly sure what a double double agent is. It seems like a dangerous business to me.