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Merged Due process in the US

Hercules56 said:
What is stopping ICE from deporting anyone and everyone that they suspect of gang affiliations to El Salvador, without hard evidence and Due Process? What about US citizens, are we really protected? And if so, for how long?
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That is the point. I thought you were arguing against that.
 
Bondi on Abrego Garcia: "Even if President Bukele said, 'we'll send him back,' all that would happen is one more step in paperwork and he would go right back to El Salvador because he is an MS-13 member. ICE testified to that ... he's not a 'Maryland man.' He's a guy from El Salvador."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1912502221050110064
 
Hercules56 said:
What is stopping ICE from deporting anyone and everyone that they suspect of gang affiliations to El Salvador, without hard evidence and Due Process? What about US citizens, are we really protected? And if so, for how long?
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Nothing is stopping them. If ICE say you are a gang member then you are deported. It's official policy.
 
Hercules56 said:
You have ZERO opinion about the President of the United States saying he supports the idea of deporting US citizens to foreign prisons that are notorious for violence and zero Due Process?
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It's not clear what class of offender the Trump administration is looking at. If we interpret charitably the promise that it would be only for the most serious offenders who have been properly convicted and sentenced, rendition to a foreign sovereign still runs afoul of the Constitution because it denies habeas corpus relief. A person in custody has a right to challenge his detention. Directly, this would be for causes such as an improper conviction upon discovery of new exculpatory evidence. Less directly it would be for such things as inhuman conditions of punishment—the very thing it seems the foreign prisons were meant to inflict.

It's not unreasonable here to fear the slippery slope. The right of habeas relief may be suspended in the case of "rebellion or invasion" when the public safety requires it. The Trump administration is trying very hard to claim we are under invasion. So when they say they are examining the legality of exile and rendition of U.S. citizens as a criminal punishment, the framework of the argument they are likely to make in favor of it is already apparent.

Hercules56 said:
Yes I to am very confused as to why he chose to insult your very honest acceptance that we were mistaken.
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We'll see if he bothers to explain himself. I assume he refers to the follow up discussion in which I pointed out that the criminal penalty for willfully failing to register as an alien require a conviction, which implies due process. It was correctly noted that neither Pam Bondi in her remarks nor Donald Trump in his executive order contemplated any lack of due process in desiring to more aggressively prosecute this offense. I agree. However, I stand by my rebuttal. I think that's a straw man.

This thread contains examples of the Trump administration ignoring due process. But it's not as if they announced ahead of time, "We're going to omit due process in all these cases." In fact, the lawyer commentators I follow opine that how it usually works is that you promise due process in speech and writing, give some vague lip service to it, but then fail to actually guarantee it in any meaningful way. I give credit to the Trump administration for not always being comical, mustache-twirling villains, but I'm looking at their actions, not their words. If people want to place their faith in the administration to guarantee due process moving forward, that's their prerogative. I am simply unwilling to do that given the current circumstances.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Bondi on Abrego Garcia: "Even if President Bukele said, 'we'll send him back,' all that would happen is one more step in paperwork and he would go right back to El Salvador because he is an MS-13 member. ICE testified to that ... he's not a 'Maryland man.' He's a guy from El Salvador."

https://twitter.com/x/status/1912502221050110064
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Wearing a hoodie and a Bulls cap gets you renditioned.

Check.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Bondi on Abrego Garcia: "Even if President Bukele said, 'we'll send him back,' all that would happen is one more step in paperwork and he would go right back to El Salvador because he is an MS-13 member.
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And the best bit is you never have to prove he's a gang member. You just have to say it.

It's like calling them a witch. It's like Zeus firing thunderbolts from his sharpie. Zap, and you're gone. Move fast and zap people. I expect it'll get quite addictive. They're going to need more and bigger jails.
 
Hercules56 said:
You have no evidence that he paid income tax. Day laborers who solicit work at Home Depot are paid in cash and its all off the books.
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Was he charged with tax evasion? Was he in fact charged with any criminal offense?

Hercules56 said:
Had he applied for asylum when he first got here, like he should have, it would have likely been approved....
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Not necessarily. The asylum process is not as straightforward as you seem to imagine, and there remain plenty of lesser remedies such as those that were granted to Abrego Garcia. He made a sufficient showing that he would be in danger if he were sent back to El Salvador. That Option B works better in this case than Option A doesn't mean anyone has done anything wrong.

Hercules56 said:
...and he given a permit to work in the USA legally, with all the wonderful taxes that come with it.
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Abrego Garcia was known to and under the supervision of an immigration court. Again, just because you envision that Option B would work doesn't mean that Option A doesn't also work.

Hercules56 said:
Kinda sad how you guys refuse to acknowledge his many mistakes and poor choices.
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Because they are irrelevant to whether the law treated him appropriately. You seem to be groping for some kind of "clean hands" doctrine here. That's just not how it works.

Kind of alarming how you seem to think there exist circumstances that casually dispense with Constitutional guarantees and apply them only to people who meet certain character requirements. You seem to be hung upon on the basic nature of what a right is.
 
Jack by the hedge said:
And the best bit is you never have to prove he's a gang member. You just have to say it.
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Which is why so much of the Bill of Rights has to do with how you treat people you accuse of crimes. Due process isn't just a formality or an abstraction. It is the guarantee that government actions that endanger people's fundamental rights are susceptible to challenge on the part of the accused—the promise that a President's "inherent Article II powers" can't be a catch-all justification for doing whatever the government wants without accountability.

Jack by the hedge said:
It's like calling them a witch. It's like Zeus firing thunderbolts from his sharpie. Zap, and you're gone. Move fast and zap people. I expect it'll get quite addictive. They're going to need more and bigger jails.
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Pres. Trump literally told Pres. Bukele he's going to have to build five more prisons. The evidence in hand favors the suspicion that the Trump administration plans to use rendition as much as possible. It's pretty obvious that this is not a one-time thing.
 
JayUtah said:
Kind of alarming how you seem to think there exist circumstances that casually dispense with Constitutional guarantees and apply them only to people who meet certain character requirements. ...
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Interesting you should mention that when it is precisely what happened in the early days of our nation, and even more recently in some regard.

Not saying it was OK , just nothing new.
 
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Resume said:
Wearing a hoodie and a Bulls cap gets you renditioned.
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Police and prosecutors have been playing stupid tricks like this forever. They go before juries and declare that whatever dress, grooming, or aesthetic the accused displays is either overtly or secretly somehow evidence of his criminal associations. This has been especially true of tattoos. And most of this has been straight-up invented by the prosecution. They're unabashedly doing this in Abregro Garcia's case because it has worked so well before in criminal cases that have heretofore received less attention.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Interesting you should mention that when it is precisely what happened in the early days of our nation, and even more recently in some regard.

Not saying it was OK , just nothing new.
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I think you mean the Alien and Sedition Acts, correct? Indeed, admittedly bad laws badly enforced. I assume the recent examples you allude to are the treatment of Germans and Japanese during the world wars? Also badly handled—and sadly given legal cover in the latter case by Korematsu v. U.S. I agree: not okay, and ostensibly nothing new. What might be considered new in this case is the stretch in claiming that we're at war with Venezuela in the character of Tren de Aragua.
 
JayUtah said:
Police and prosecutors have been playing stupid tricks like this forever. They go before juries and declare that whatever dress, grooming, or aesthetic the accused displays is either overtly or secretly somehow evidence of his criminal associations. This has been especially true of tattoos. And most of this has been straight-up invented by the prosecution. They're unabashedly doing this in Abregro Garcia's case because it has worked so well before in criminal cases that have heretofore received less attention.
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I am led to understand that the right-wingosphere is claiming Garcia is wanted for murder in El Salvador for murder so it won't be long until Baghdad Barbie is repeating that.
 
JayUtah said:
Excuse me?

I unequivocally noted that you were correct, that the penalty A.G. Bondi mentioned was indeed part of the law, and had been all along. I unequivocally acknowledged my error in believing otherwise.

I could have made some hay about you previously having tried to write off Bondi's statement as somehow insincere, since you were also laboring at the time under the same misconception that the law provided no penalty. But I didn't, because you withdrew those statements and apologized for them, and because you deserve legitimate credit for having finally found an appropriate law citation.

Explain what was "weaselly" about my post. Explain what was "disingenuous" about it. I too was prepared to take my lumps and move on. But now we're going to have to talk about it.
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I think this is ThePrestige's way of saying that he dislikes honesty and admission of error.
 
Skeptical Greg said:
Interesting you should mention that when it is precisely what happened in the early days of our nation, and even more recently in some regard.

Not saying it was OK , just nothing new.
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True enough, but saying it happened before does not make it right now. Some of those instances, such as the internment of Japanese Americans, have been almost universally deplored. And here we go again. Why would one not mention such monumental ignorance and moral failure? We're supposed to learn from our mistakes, not scribble them over the Constitution with a Sharpie.
 
It has happened before.
Don't doubt Donald will do it again.

The Topaz Internment Camp.

9066: An Immoral & unAmerican Executive Order

 
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plague311 said:
Right, that was 2019, not when he was illegally arrested and deported. Why is this so hard for you to understand? He was an apprentice sheet worker. How can that be made more clear to you?
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Again we have to compare Elon Musk, who also worked unlawfully in the United States. If having once been an illegal worker taints one's character forever and dissolves Constitutional guarantees, why are people praising Musk and denouncing Abrego Garcia?
 
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