Merged Due process in the US

[Planigale]

One of the differences between Europe (including Russia) and the US is the applicability of rights. Europe has human rights, these apply to citizens and non-citizens equally, they apply whether within the territory of the nation state or not. They are as one might phrase it inalienable rights that apply to all people. The US has taken a different path and holds that rights are primarily those of citizens (though they may be extended to non-citizens), and only applicable within the territory of the USA.

To a European the idea that freedom of speech would differ between a citizen and a non-citizen would be alien. Non-citizens do have rights to remain in countries e.g. if they have a visa, and they can't be arbitrarily arrested and deported. Clearly the ability to deny rights to some people was essential to the founding of the US as maintaining slavery was a driver to independence (against the fear that English law might be enforced in the colonies which would have resulted in the end of slavery, indeed had the colonies lost, slavery would have been abolished and the 13 states would now be part of the great nation of Canada!).

European staes have to recognise the human rights of non-citizens and citizens in their actions whether within their teritory or elsewhere.

(The case that defined habeas corpus was actually an early case of rendition, the King of England imprisoned someone extra-territorially - in Jersey part of the Duchy of Normandy and not part of the Kingdom of England, a writ of habeas corpus was made, the king tried to reject it because the prisoner was not within the jurisdiction of England (Jersey has an entirely seperate legal system), the judge said that the King had authority over the prisoner as Duke of Normandy and the King / Duke was in England and so the courts had jurisdiction. The prisoner was released.)

https://www.echr.coe.int/documents/d/echr/convention_ENG

 

[Olmstead]

It's all very Kafkaesque.

"The basic principle I use for my decisions is this: Guilt is always beyond a doubt. Other courts could not follow this principle, for they are made up of many heads and, in addition, have even higher courts above them. But that is not the case here [...] If I had first summoned the man and interrogated him, the result would have been confusion. He would have lied, and if I had been successful in refuting his lies, he would have replaced them with new lies, and so forth. But now I have him, and I won’t release him again."

- In the Penal Colony

 

[bruto]

So shipping people out of the US shouldn't require due process. What should then, I mean clearly they can throw citizens out by just stripping them of their citizenship and deporting them. That doesn't require due process either. Not requireing due process is how citizens get deported by "Mistake"

Agreed, which is why the paragraph from which the above comes had a last sentence.

 

[TellyKNeasuss]

Here in the USA, we do process deportation orders for non-citizens.

 

[Tero]

The green card holders are the ones being harassed now. They are leagally here. What next? Interrogate me when I enter the country, since I have my birthplace right on the passport, and it is not the USA.

 

[Donal]

Yeah but they never said something naughty against Israel, so they're kosher.

Pretty sure Musk regularly amplifies things like Great Replacement conspiracies. Y'know, actual antisemitism.

 

[bruto]

The green card holders are the ones being harassed now. They are leagally here. What next? Interrogate me when I enter the country, since I have my birthplace right on the passport, and it is not the USA.

Sadly, that's no joke. It hasn't happened yet in this administration, but it's early days. During the previous Trump administration, when doing international traveling (which we do a lot of) my wife was pulled aside for "random" screening multiple times by TSA before boarding flights home. Never happened to me. At one such event, when we almost missed our flight home from Iceland, the Icelandic agent made it clear that this was TSA, not them. When she was bundled into a room full of other "random" selectees, where everything was inspected, swabbed down, questioned, and dumped out, during a lull she talked to some others in the room. Every single one of them was a naturalized American citizen (her passport has "Havana.")

Of course never an apology or a kind word. When trying to reassemble her baggage while the plane was already boarding, the inspector told her to calm down, take your time, no hurry.

This did not happen once before Trump became president, and never after. 5 Times during. So far it hasn't happened again, but we'll be flying briefly into Iceland again this summer. We have "Global Entry" now, and when actually entering the US, the process is seamless, but it remains to be seen what will happen at the boarding end.

 

[Hercules56]

If you are accused of a crime in the USA, you should of course have Due Process. Your immigration status does not matter.

However, deportation proceedings for illegal aliens should not be affected by this. Illegal aliens have no right to be here.

However if you are on a work or education visa you should be able to exhaust your Due Process here in the USA, for the duration of your visa.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you are accused of a crime in the USA, you should of course have Due Process. Your immigration status does not matter.

However, deportation proceedings for illegal aliens should not be affected by this. Illegal aliens have no right to be here.

However if you are on a work or education visa you should be able to exhaust your Due Process here in the USA, for the duration of your visa.

And of course an accusation is sufficient to prove that someone is an illegal alien, no need for due process to ever evaluate these claims a total waste of time.

 

[Hercules56]

And of course an accusation is sufficient to prove that someone is an illegal alien, no need for due process to ever evaluate these claims a total waste of time.

No, if you are accused of being an Illegal Alien, you should be able to easily prove you are not, by showing your passport or travel/education/work Visa.

ICE will of course have a copy of all such documents, so proving you are here legally should be relatively simple.

 

[ponderingturtle]

No, if you are accused of being an Illegal Alien, you should be able to easily prove you are not, by showing your passport or travel/education/work Visa.

ICE will of course have a copy of all such documents, so proving you are here legally should be relatively simple.

But with out due process you have no one to show them too.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

The fact that we're even having a discussion on who is entitled to due process says a lot about the times we live in, doesn't it.

 

[Norman Alexander]

If you are accused of a crime in the USA, you should of course have Due Process. Your immigration status does not matter.

However, deportation proceedings for illegal aliens should not be affected by this. Illegal aliens have no right to be here.
However if you are on a work or education visa you should be able to exhaust your Due Process here in the USA, for the duration of your vivisa.How do you even know they are "illegal" without due process

How do you know they are illegal without due process? Also, applying for asylum is not illegal.

 

[Hercules56]

But with out due process you have no one to show them too.

Yeah. So I guess those accused of being here illegally get some Due Process too.

 

[Hercules56]

How do you know they are illegal without due process? Also, applying for asylum is not illegal.

Who said it was?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Yeah. So I guess those accused of being here illegally get some Due Process too.

So changed your mind that they do deserve due process? Or are we just supposed to trust that when they round people up they are actually checking documentation? Which just means that anyone who does not carry their passport with them at all times is libel to be sent to gitmo.

 

[Hercules56]

It is my understanding that folks here on a tourist/work/education Visa should keep their visa with them at all times in case they have a run in with the authorities. Or their passport. Is this not the case?

Should be pretty easy to prove one is here legally.

 

[Hercules56]

So changed your mind that they do deserve due process? Or are we just supposed to trust that when they round people up they are actually checking documentation? Which just means that anyone who does not carry their passport with them at all times is libel to be sent to gitmo.

If you are here on a visa, you really should keep it or your passport with you at all times.

If you are suspected of a crime and police grab you and you dont have your documents, may be a pain in the ass.

 

[ponderingturtle]

It is my understanding that folks here on a tourist/work/education Visa should keep their visa with them at all times in case they have a run in with the authorities. Or their passport. Is this not the case?

Should be pretty easy to prove one is here legally.

Really everyone should have their proof of citizenship with them at all times, it is a crime not to, punishable by permenant stay at gitmo.

 

[ponderingturtle]

If you are here on a visa, you really should keep it or your passport with you at all times.

If you are suspected of a crime and police grab you and you dont have your documents, may be a pain in the ass.

So what paperwork do you carry with you at all times to prove your citizenship at the drop of a hat or get deported?