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Merged Due process in the US

JayUtah said:
I'll clarify.

The Trump administration is rounding people up off the street and condemning them to a foreign torture prison without charge, trial, representation, or the possibility of reprieve, even through the highly-belated habeas process.

Any questions?
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That's what I thought you meant.

Thanks.
 
Hercules56 said:
Due Process is generally about defending oneself against criminal charges. Deportation is not a punishment for criminals, but an administrative action for people who have no actual "right" to be here. Is arrest & indictment enough to deport someone? Yes, since the indictment requires Probable Cause aka evidence, to convince a Grand Jury that charges are warranted. But of course one should be able to appeal a deportation order if they feel they have some right to be here.



Nobody should be sent to prison absent indictment, trial and conviction in a court of law with the right to appeal.
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You're part way there, but one of the questions asked was whether they should be sent to a "forever prison," which is what our so-called justice department is gleefully boasting of doing. Even if you can justify the due process of deportation, it is hard to justify throwing in a life sentence.
 
JayUtah said:
Same here. I have a passport but I don't carry it when I'm in the United States. If stopped on the street, I could not prove that I am a U.S. citizen.

If we were doing this by the book, any person found standing on American soil would be presumed to be standing there lawfully. As such, the presumption affords them the liberty of continuing to stand there unmolested. To deprive someone of that liberty requires due process. That begins with individualized reasonable suspicion, but must continue through the process before action can be taken. The Trump administration doesn't even bother with reasonable suspicion. It has simply declared an entire vaguely defined group not only to be removable, but also criminal.


I don't think they'll stop there. Once you establish that ICE can do whatever it wants in pursuit of "illegals," and once you've floated the idea that the worst American citizens can be "deported" (i.e., made subject to the immigration's punitive infrastructure), ICE will simply become the American Gestapo.
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I think you've noted one thing that some people are missing here. Due Process is not just what happens after you're arrested and detained. Some of it comes before. The Fourth Amendment is pretty clear here.

And indeed, I don't think at all that they'll stop there. Every time we look around we see just the opposite. What I am trying to point out is that we need to look at what is happening right now, the equivocations, corruptions and perversions of what we once thought were our values and our rights, and realize right now what it's a symptom of. Given half a chance it will get worse, and people all over will be wondering how that happened, and who knew, and what did I do to deserve all these kittens.

We may not have much power to prevent it, but let's not feign surprise!
 
bruto said:
Of course we have birth records.
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To comment on this part, specifically, it's probably worth noting that in the past, identification like birth certificates wasn't issued to quite a few citizens born in the US for a variety of reasons, including segregation. This was especially true for black people in Southern states. Similar is true for many Native Americans, too, though, and the problem isn't limited to just them.

Not entirely coincidentally, those are both also examples of groups that law enforcement disproportionately targets anyways and thus would be all the more vulnerable should the normal presumption of innocent until proven guilty -
JayUtah said:
If we were doing this by the book, any person found standing on American soil would be presumed to be standing there lawfully. As such, the presumption affords them the liberty of continuing to stand there unmolested. To deprive someone of that liberty requires due process. That begins with individualized reasonable suspicion, but must continue through the process before action can be taken.
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Be perverted into presumption of guilty until proven innocent, as the Trump Administration seeks to do. Can't say that I'm all that surprised with Hercules56 sneaking that bit of insidious framing in among otherwise more reasonable things.
 
JayUtah said:
Agreed. I'll clarify.

The Trump administration is rounding people up off the street and condemning them to a foreign torture prison without charge, trial, representation, or the possibility of reprieve, even through the highly-belated habeas process.

Any questions?
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The US has a long history of rounding people up off the street and condemning them to foreign and US torture prisons without charge, trial, representation or the possibility of reprieve. This is not a new phenomenon. It has been called extraordinary rendition. Predominantly it has been non-US citizens taken off foreign streets. The novelty is that now non-US citizens are taken off US streets.

We can see that the definition of terrorists and illegal combatant is being stretched. Once labelled as such even US citizens may be subject to rendition and targeted killing. US courts have failed to hold the US government to account for these actions. Trump has merely followed the logical consequences of acts of previous presidents.
 
Planigale said:
The US has a long history of rounding people up off the street and condemning them to foreign and US torture prisons without charge, trial, representation or the possibility of reprieve. This is not a new phenomenon. It has been called extraordinary rendition. Predominantly it has been non-US citizens taken off foreign streets. The novelty is that now non-US citizens are taken off US streets.

We can see that the definition of terrorists and illegal combatant is being stretched. Once labelled as such even US citizens may be subject to rendition and targeted killing. US courts have failed to hold the US government to account for these actions. Trump has merely followed the logical consequences of acts of previous presidents.
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IMO, the seeds of what is going on now, or at least a few of them, were sown when the USA went rogue after 9/11, falsely declaring to have "evidence" in order to start wars, adopting torture for interrogation, then relying on Gitmo and rendition to 3rd parties to skirt the justice system. Because all this was done to enemies, few cared. But the fix was in: dehumanization, the dismissal of human and legal rights, and extrajudicial punishment were all normalized. This is why I have sometimes said that bin Laden roundly defeated the USA, forcing it into stark relief on the international stage as a rogue agent outside the law.

I would further observe that the actions the US has taken since 9/11 have primarily served Israeli, not US interests, and that this, too, represents an intended consequence of bin Laden's actions; ie, to condemn the West's support for the occupation and subjugation of Palestine by tainting the actors involved. I do not condone bin Laden's actions, but their effectiveness is hard to deny.
 
Hercules56 said:
Due Process is generally about defending oneself against criminal charges. Deportation is not a punishment for criminals, but an administrative action for people who have no actual "right" to be here. Is arrest & indictment enough to deport someone? Yes, since the indictment requires Probable Cause aka evidence, to convince a Grand Jury that charges are warranted. But of course one should be able to appeal a deportation order if they feel they have some right to be here.



Nobody should be sent to prison absent indictment, trial and conviction in a court of law with the right to appeal.
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No it isn't, it's about civil matters as well as criminal matters.
 
Trumps comment that a child only needs 5 pencils simply confirms that he's never done anything artistic in his life. So long as they have a Sharpie to deface maps and a stubby pencil to cheat at golf that'll do, right?
 
Jack by the hedge said:
Right.

Imprisonment without trial, for life, in deliberately cruel conditions. And you, Pam, intend to do this to people you haven't convicted of any crime. Since you also rely on a legal fiction that the US is literally at war with this Venezuelan gang, have you considered what you're going to say to a future war crimes tribunal?

Remind me who the baddies are here, because it's not obvious.
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Really? It seems pretty obvious to me.
 
Andy_Ross said:
Even if you accept the claim that undocumented immigrants are not entitled to due process, you’d still need due process to ensure that they are in fact, undocumented.
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They are entitled to Due Process. They can only be deported through normal official means & methods. And they have the right to contest deportation if they feel they somehow have a right to be here.
 
Mojo said:
Yes: does Hercules56 approve of this?
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Nope. You can only put people in a prison if they have been tried and convicted of a crime. Deport them to a foreign prison in a country they are not a citizen of? I can't see how that could ever be legal.
 
Tero said:
Trump is worried about 5 million court cases to deport 5 million.

5 million green cards would be more cost effective. You can then take those away if they commit crimes.
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While they wait for their immigration court date. But if in the meantime they are arrested and charged with a crime they should be deported asap.
 
Darat said:
So when they are still according to the USA justice system innocent of a crime?
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Indictment says there was enough evidence to convince a Grand Jury. That evidence PLUS being here illegally should force your immigration court date.
 
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