P.J. Denyer
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Sadly, I think he might be right.
Merged Due process in the US
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Sadly, I think he might be right.
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My avatar is not a Drumpf hat
'I solely swear that I will execute all the office, the orifices, the officers are not trolleys, they are not allowed to execute my, Harris was the border tzar, millions of illegals, I say I want to excuse every single one, they say, I want offices, many offices, with tears in their eyes, I want to execute all the illegal...'
Andy_Ross
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Locked up forever in a horrible prison, they will never get out apparently.
Pam Bondi: "We're gonna lock them up forever, and if not we're gonna send them back to El Salvador. And they need to be in a horrible prison where they're never gonna get out."
Pam Bondi: "We're gonna lock them up forever, and if not we're gonna send them back to El Salvador. And they need to be in a horrible prison where they're never gonna get out."
Hercules56
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Due Process means every single illegal alien in the USA gets the right to appeal deportation all the way to the SCOTUS.
What do we do with millions of illegals in the USA pending appeals?
What do we do with millions of illegals in the USA pending appeals?
Jack by the hedge
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Right.
Imprisonment without trial, for life, in deliberately cruel conditions. And you, Pam, intend to do this to people you haven't convicted of any crime. Since you also rely on a legal fiction that the US is literally at war with this Venezuelan gang, have you considered what you're going to say to a future war crimes tribunal?
Remind me who the baddies are here, because it's not obvious.
thaiboxerken
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How do you know a person is an illegal alien without giving them due process? Also, every criminal can appeal rulings, that doesn't mean every criminal gets an appeal.
Possible responces here:
-"I don't think the phrase, "Unless it is inconvenient" appears in the US Constitution."
-"How do you know they are illegal aliens without due process?"
-"But we need a subservient underclass to make ourselves feel better about being ripped off by the rich!"
-"Offer them $X to turn in their employers, and issue a $2X fine to any employer who hire someone illegally."
Hercules56
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Being present in the USA is not an accusation of criminal activity.
Therefore if there is no record of them entering the USA legally and being here legally, its fair to assume they are not here legally and be deported.
Unless of course if the person can prove he/she actually IS here legally, which is where Due Process comes in.
Now, because detention and deportation for being here illegally is NOT a criminal matter, there is a worthwhile debate as to how much Due Process an illegal alien is entitled to. But yes, in general, if someone is here illegally and THEY believe they have a legal right to be here, they should be allowed to have their argument heard. How much appeal should they get, as this is not a criminal matter? Judges and lawyers gonna have to figure that out.
However I see no legal basis for deporting people to a foreign prison absent criminal conviction in the USA or in the country they are deported to. AFAIK the only country we should legally be able to deport someone to is their home country. And we should only deport them to a foreign country knowing they will be immediately imprisoned if their country has gone through the regular foreign criminal extradition process with a warrant.
None of that has occurred with Trump.
......and still, where do we keep all these people?
internment camps?
free on the streets with an ankle bracelet?
free on the streets with a temporary work card?
I think the best thing to do would be to give them a temporary work card so they can live and eat. If they are arrested and indicted for a crime, they go home immediately.
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What do you think the idiot wants to do with Alcatraz?
They're doing the work the gueros won't do anyway, so why not?
The problem is that the impression this adminstration is attempting (and succeeding) to make it that all migrants are villians. They say they're sending the worst of the worst to the forever slave prison, but without due process, how do we know that's true? Let's just say Kilmar Garcia is a minor league gang member, as one person claimed; is a life sentence to a ◊◊◊◊ hole prison appropriate? It isn't, and I would bet you agree.
Trump will go to his death bed claiming the photoshopped MS13 tattoos on Garcia's knuckles are legit, even though any fool can see they are not. He and his corrupt administration will lie to the world in order to keep sending these people to CECOT based on the flimsiest of evidence. These people are ◊◊◊◊, and they ◊◊◊◊ on the constitution willfully, apparently with no mechanism to stop them.
Hercules56
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Any illegal indicted or convicted for a crime in the USA should be deported ASAP. The rest can go home and try to come back legally OR stay here, plead their case to stay, but if they still end up getting deported they lose the privilege to try to come back.
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
That part seems a bit problematic, since those of us who were born in the USA can hardly provide a record. Of course we have birth records. But we are not legally required to obtain, carry or record our birth certificates, even though it's almost always convenient to possess them. And so far at least, we're still in a system where we do not have to carry our papers to prove anything. Sure, I have a birth certificate, but it's in a safe deposit box where it belongs, along with my wife's naturalization papers. The day we need to carry those will be a dark day indeed. Once upon a time, which seems to be fading fast, we were not required to prove ourselves to be citizens unless someone had a reason to question whether we were, and that had to be based on more than a glance at our skin or our names. We're beginning to see a small but seriously frightening number of cases where this fundamental idea has been violated, up to and including the detention of citizens who actually could prove their citizenship.
I can understand much of the concern about illegal aliens, and about what is the best thing to do about the problem, and the earnest attempt of many to find the best solution to a difficult problem. I'm not really ragging on you (I'll save that for other issues!). Most of what I see above seems reasonable and suggests that thought has been expended. Unfortunately, I think the administration is using this as an excuse to turn ICE into a secret police force aimed at implementing their ethnic and ideological bigotry, and the price is making our society and all our lives a little bit less free, less tolerant, more fearful, and not more but less secure. And I think we must guard against little, seemingly insignificant, erosions of how we look at things.
I once long ago heard someone suggest that the symptomatic sign of fascism is when the police stop protecting the people and start protecting the state against them. I might add, when the thing people fear most is not the unruly but those who rule.
Indicted and convicted are two different things; you know that, right? That's what due process is all about.
The "rest?"
Should they be deported to a forever prison?
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Same here. I have a passport but I don't carry it when I'm in the United States. If stopped on the street, I could not prove that I am a U.S. citizen.
If we were doing this by the book, any person found standing on American soil would be presumed to be standing there lawfully. As such, the presumption affords them the liberty of continuing to stand there unmolested. To deprive someone of that liberty requires due process. That begins with individualized reasonable suspicion, but must continue through the process before action can be taken. The Trump administration doesn't even bother with reasonable suspicion. It has simply declared an entire vaguely defined group not only to be removable, but also criminal.
I don't think they'll stop there. Once you establish that ICE can do whatever it wants in pursuit of "illegals," and once you've floated the idea that the worst American citizens can be "deported" (i.e., made subject to the immigration's punitive infrastructure), ICE will simply become the American Gestapo.
Hercules56
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Due Process is generally about defending oneself against criminal charges. Deportation is not a punishment for criminals, but an administrative action for people who have no actual "right" to be here. Is arrest & indictment enough to deport someone? Yes, since the indictment requires Probable Cause aka evidence, to convince a Grand Jury that charges are warranted. But of course one should be able to appeal a deportation order if they feel they have some right to be here.
Nobody should be sent to prison absent indictment, trial and conviction in a court of law with the right to appeal.
No, immigrants and migrants are entitled to legal hearings and the right to present evidence in their defense before their rights to liberty and life are abrogated.
JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
No.
Deportation is a deprivation of liberty. It is expressly covered by the Due Process clause.
No. The defendant does not have the right to challenge the accusations against him in a grand jury.
That's where the rest of due process comes in, but before it reaches the appeal stage. If you are accused of being in the country unlawfully, you must be given the right to challenge that accusation before an order is given that deprives you of your liberty.
That is not what's currently happening.
I think this needs a little clarity. Are yoe meaning they are being given due process or not?
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JayUtah
Penultimate Amazing
Agreed. I'll clarify.
The Trump administration is rounding people up off the street and condemning them to a foreign torture prison without charge, trial, representation, or the possibility of reprieve, even through the highly-belated habeas process.
Any questions?
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