Drag Shows!!

[Stacyhs]

I spoke to some of my pig friends, they say they find pig drag to be boaring unless they really ham it up.

But are they being porked fun at?

 

[Stacyhs]

Didn't the USAian right already try that?

I don't think that went beyond warning labels..

Ron O. is correct. Warning labels that no one paid any attention to but it gave the right a 'moral win' the self-proclaimed 'family values' party could pat themselves on the back for.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Ron O. is correct. Warning labels that no one paid any attention to but it gave the right a 'moral win' the self-proclaimed 'family values' party could pat themselves on the back for.

Tipper Gore was the one behind that particular "moral outrage" of the week. The evangelicals were the ones worried about Satan and records played backwards, though.

Anything that gets parents saying "But what about the KIDS!!!!" is always prime-time in politics.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

But are they being porked fun at?

They don't resort to mud-slinging, I hope.

 

[gnome]

Ron O. is correct. Warning labels that no one paid any attention to but it gave the right a 'moral win' the self-proclaimed 'family values' party could pat themselves on the back for.

Is it correct that nobody paid attention to it? IIRC because major stores wouldn't carry content with those labels on it, that it shut out a lot of acts from plenty of business.

Florida of course went one further, actually sending law enforcement raids on stores that WERE willing to carry warning-labeled content.

 

[bruto]

Is it correct that nobody paid attention to it? IIRC because major stores wouldn't carry content with those labels on it, that it shut out a lot of acts from plenty of business.

Florida of course went one further, actually sending law enforcement raids on stores that WERE willing to carry warning-labeled content.

I think this is the problem, and it's not one that's unique to the right, though that's where we're seeing it most these days. It doesn't matter if your scheme does not hold up in court, or has no real substance, if it can cause an expensive nuisance to the people who can least afford it. It's cold comfort to win a case if you lose your job and go bankrupt doing it. Nuisance laws aimed at the powerless enforce themselves.

 

[Mongrel]

It might be fun to invent something especially stupid just for them to be upset over. I suggest a new "trend" of people converting their pets to Islam. Just their pets. Take some photos of kittens on a prayer rug, call into one those crazy talk radio shows ancient Boomers listen to, and I bet we could make it a thing within six weeks.

Here's one to start

 

[wareyin]

How do you figure those "some others" vastly outnumber my view? How does your "some others" split on the basis of sex?

The "some others" are the larger numbers of women who are attending the drag events and watching the drag tv shows. Duh.

Reports are that women make up more than 60% of the audiences. But you and your one female friend really, really hate drag so that evens out, I guess.

 

[wareyin]

Ron O. is correct. Warning labels that no one paid any attention to but it gave the right a 'moral win' the self-proclaimed 'family values' party could pat themselves on the back for.

Some stores and/or some states specifically forbade selling music with a warning label to minors. Yes, I was carded for trying to buy a heavy metal cd as a teenager, and yes, I was refused purchase for not being 18.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The whole broad "Warning Label" thing is a trap argument.

"We don't want to ban it, we just want warning labels."

"If it so harmless, why does it need a warning label?"

 

[wareyin]

Is it correct that nobody paid attention to it? IIRC because major stores wouldn't carry content with those labels on it, that it shut out a lot of acts from plenty of business.

Florida of course went one further, actually sending law enforcement raids on stores that WERE willing to carry warning-labeled content.

There were also the edited versions of the albums, with buzzes or static or bleeps to cover the "bad" words. Or they just cut the vocals at the key points, or chopped the song completely.

There were lots of ways record labels used to make the cd/tape objectively worse to avoid the warning label just to be able to sell in certain stores/states/ to minors.

 

[Emily's Cat]

So to give it the correct answer.

Drag shows make fun of stereotypes.

Is it OK to make fun of stereotypes?

You say that it makes fun of stereotypes... but I don't see it that way at all. I see it reinforcing stereotypes. Specifically, it reinforces the male-centered stereotype of male expectations and stereotypes of females. The "characters" involved in drag are based on over-sexualized presentations of females, at either extreme - the slutty bimbo or the frigid harridan. The behavior is exaggerated as well, often extremely raunchy and borderline predatory. These are the archetypes of the male-centered view of females, which bases our primary valuation on how sexually and aesthetically pleasing we are to males.

That these caricatures and parodies of females are being performed by males doesn't "make fun of" them at all, it reinforces them. It's males saying "look at me, look how much of a female I am, this is what females are like, guffaw, he he he".

You, as a male, simply declaring that my perception of this is wrong and your perception is right, is rather self-serving. You're placing your own enjoyment of the parody of females above the impact it has on females.

This isn't something new. This is just more of the same old thing: males deciding that their enjoyment of females is more important than the actual lives and experiences of females themsleves.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'm not sure how. Mocking something, drawing attention to how ridiculous it is, doesn't seem to be something that would make it stronger.

How do you figure they're mocking stereotypes and drawing attention to how ridiculous they are? What makes you think this is what drag does with respect to the social stereotypes around female behavior, presentation, and role?

I will also note that this particular argument doesn't hold for any other stereotype. We don't argue that racist stereotypes of first nations people enacted by white folks are "mocking" those stereotypes and that those performances weaken the stereotypes. We don't argue that ableist stereotypes of mentally disabled people as enacted by fully able people are "mocking" the stereotypes and actually make them weaker.

In all other cases, we recognize that the performance of a negative stereotype about a discriminated group, as performed by members of the privileged group, are implicitly offensive an unacceptable. Why is it that performances of negative stereotypes of females, as performed by males, are somehow supposed to be "empowering" for females? Why is there special pleading for this specific group of people as a subject for parody and caricature?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Some women are offended by drag. Some aren't. No one here can say which is the greater in number so just stop trying to one up each other over something that you can't prove.

Which has the greater number is not particularly relevant - neither is an immaterial perspective.

Those of us holding one view ought to be able to discuss the reason for our view, and make the argument for why our perspective should be given greater consideration... without being dismissed out of hand belittled.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Tennessee has just passed a very restrictive bill… Which would seem to ruin many a Halloween plan:

Tennessee takes lead in Republican effort to restrict drag shows | Reuters https://www.reuters.com/world/us/te...blican-effort-restrict-drag-shows-2023-02-23/

So nice to see our august legislators addressing the problems of the nation…

This sort of overreactive legislation makes me so angry. It doesn't support my view, nor my arguments. It just makes everything more politicized in a way that ends up drowning out the actual argument that I and many females are making.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The "some others" are the larger numbers of women who are attending the drag events and watching the drag tv shows. Duh.

Reports are that women make up more than 60% of the audiences. But you and your one female friend really, really hate drag so that evens out, I guess.

Step back from that and give it some thought. You're extrapolating that because 60% of the attendees at drag shows are female... then that means that 60% of females approve of drag. You have no support for this extrapolation.

It could very well be that only 10% of females support drag shows, and that 100% of those go to drag shows, where they make up 60% of the audience.

Self-selection bias in surveys is a helluva thing. Seriously. Go survey people at a gin tasting event, and you're going to end up with an overwhelming proportion of people who really love gin. But that says nothing at all about the proportion of people who do not go to gin-tasting events and whether or not they like gin. And it completely ignores the obvious confounding factor that people who dislike gin don't go to gin tasting events.

Females who dislike drag don't watch drag shows. They are not in the audience. So unless you can find some alternative source of information that shows that a majority of females who don't go to drag shows are supportive of drag... your statistic means nothing at all. It just means that people who go to drag shows like drag. Which is a bit of a "duh!" observation.

 

[Thermal]

I keep rolling back to "why does the audience like drag?" Like, I get the performers doing what they like. Expression and all. And of course their friends and others who share a similar lifestyle. But do the people who like seeing men in dresses also get fired up to see women dressed as lumberjacks? I mean yeah, drag kings are out there, but much like pole dancers, there is a solid majority only going in one direction. There's not much happening in the Drag King Story Hour front, by contrast.

Drag viewers of the forum: what are you getting from seeing men in dresses that you are not getting from women in workboots and hardhats? If it's about glamor, do you spend a similar amount of time at female fashion shows? Or is it again just something about specifically guys in women's clothes that compelled you to buy that ticket?

 

[ZirconBlue]

Is it correct that nobody paid attention to it? IIRC because major stores wouldn't carry content with those labels on it, that it shut out a lot of acts from plenty of business.

Florida of course went one further, actually sending law enforcement raids on stores that WERE willing to carry warning-labeled content.

There were also the edited versions of the albums, with buzzes or static or bleeps to cover the "bad" words. Or they just cut the vocals at the key points, or chopped the song completely.

There were lots of ways record labels used to make the cd/tape objectively worse to avoid the warning label just to be able to sell in certain stores/states/ to minors.

On the other hand, as a teen at the time, a lot of my peers would saw an album carrying the warning label as a point in its favor. I have at least one metal CD that didn't earn a warning label -- indeed it has no explicit lyrics at all -- but they printed a "parental advisory" message on the album art itself, as it was believed that it would help sales.

 

[wareyin]

Step back from that and give it some thought. You're extrapolating that because 60% of the attendees at drag shows are female... then that means that 60% of females approve of drag. You have no support for this extrapolation.

No, that's not at all what I'm extrapolating. I'm saying on the one hand we have the number of women choosing to attend drag shows which we know is a far, far greater number than 2. On the other hand, we have 2, and only 2, women here who claim women are offended by drag. You claim to represent some silent, larger body of women who you're sure agree with you, but you have zero evidence for that.

It could very well be that only 10% of females support drag shows, and that 100% of those go to drag shows, where they make up 60% of the audience.

It could be, but we have exactly zero reason to assume that it is.

Self-selection bias in surveys is a helluva thing. Seriously.

I know that. I told you that. You think your self-selected circle of friends and social media acquaintances all agreeing with you demonstrates that your views are not that of a tiny minority. But you're ignoring that you're starting with a self-selected group of people who already hate the things you hate.

Go survey people at a gin tasting event, and you're going to end up with an overwhelming proportion of people who really love gin. But that says nothing at all about the proportion of people who do not go to gin-tasting events and whether or not they like gin. And it completely ignores the obvious confounding factor that people who dislike gin don't go to gin tasting events.

Females who dislike drag don't watch drag shows. They are not in the audience. So unless you can find some alternative source of information that shows that a majority of females who don't go to drag shows are supportive of drag... your statistic means nothing at all. It just means that people who go to drag shows like drag. Which is a bit of a "duh!" observation.

Now that you understand that I'm saying the number of "females" who like drag is much, much greater than the 2 anonymous internet people who claim to be women and say they hate drag, perhaps you can stop assuming that I'm extrapolating anything or making the same errors you are.

 

[JoeMorgue]

On the other hand, as a teen at the time, a lot of my peers would saw an album carrying the warning label as a point in its favor. I have at least one metal CD that didn't earn a warning label -- indeed it has no explicit lyrics at all -- but they printed a "parental advisory" message on the album art itself, as it was believed that it would help sales.

There's a concept in filmmaking called "Avoiding the Dreaded G Rating" where anything that doesn't at least get a PG-13 is seen as a kid's movie so filmmakers will throw in a pointless swear word or bare butt or SOMETHING that risque but not too risque to get you to that PG or PG-13 sweetspot.

The other thing is the long running rule in Hollywood that a film rated X/NC-17 is box office poison.

Here's the thing with that. As soon as DVD's became a thing unrated versions of films became hugely popular, with "The version you couldn't see in theaters!" often being the literal marketing point.

So Ma and Pay Little Town America won't go see the cut of American Psycho where he says "*******" instead of "ass" and has 17 extra frames during the threesome sequence (no seriously that is the total extent of the unrated/R-rated difference) at the quaint little main street theater but will buy it off the shelf at the quaint little main street Walmart?

ETA: Huh. I guess the autocensor agrees that one word is worse.