Drag Shows!!

[Emily's Cat]

Tbf, the stated purpose of the group is to hire out a very specific type of performer to a very specific type of performance to a very specific young age group. Most of the very specific target audience would have no understanding or resistance to the very specific performers; hell, most of the very specific audience believes in the tooth fairy.

This performance is by adults, doing adult things, for the benefit of adults. Just in front of children.

Aye, there's the rub.

 

[Upchurch]

FYI, it might be worth doing some research on the reason for the gay panic, and perhaps considering the dynamic here.

“I’m not homophobic, but…” never ends not-homophobic.

Consider that a significant amount of the push-back to gay rights was explicitly because NAMBLA attached itself to the movement. A lot of the objection was not to gay rights, it was to the normalization of pedophilia under the guise of gay rights. Consider that lesbians were strongly opposed to the inclusion of various pedophile rights activists in the gay rights movement, but were ignored by their male peers who didn't think it was a big deal. Are you surprised that the response to opposition to pedophilia was framed as if it were people correlating gay with pedo?

Your talking about something that happened in the 90s. How was the gay community just asking for the moral panic before that? Was it what they were wearing? Maybe if they just didn’t choose that lifestyle?

 

[catsmate]

2) Cross-dressing males are an interesting category, that raise concerns for some valid reasons. It has little to do with the actual dress, and more to do with the correlation with some problematic mental health disorders.

And these "valid reasons" are?

2a) There is a high proportion of serial killers who were also cross-dressers. Considerably higher than the proportion of the general male public who cross dress. I have no idea about the reason, but the correlation is definitely there.

So ******* what?

The most common book found in the lives of USAian serial killers is the King James Bible. Obviously that work of mythology is a cause for concern...

Furthermore your "argument" is bollocks; many of the encounters with transvestism cited in the studies of serial killers were involuntary, i.e. they were so dressed by others, usually female parents.

2b) Autogynephilia does exist, and remains a subclassification of transvestic paraphilias. While it is certainly not true of all cross-dressing males, there remains a reasonable likelihood that a cross-dressing male is making everyone around them the nonconsenting partners in their sexual fantasy fulfillment.

Oh good grief.....

What a load of bigoted nonsense.

 

[Emily's Cat]

To Wong Foo, Thanks for Everything, Love, Julie Newmar? Swayze, Snipes, and John can't pronounce his last name showing some real acting chops.

Oooh fuzzy lines! Those are male actors, who I believe are all male-presenting heterosexuals, who are performing an acting role, where the characters they are acting are drag queens!

Good movie, too.

 

[plague311]

And the thread reset begins.

 

[JoeMorgue]

None of those metaphors match. Are you under the impression that drag story hours are the only ones taking place?

If there's other discourse out there about a specific demographic reading to children I don't know about it.

I'm not saying only Drag Queens are reading to children, I'm saying Drag Queens are the only specific group I'm aware of that we're arguing about needing to read to children.

My point is this whole debate doesn't feel organic to me. "You know what the world needs? More Drag Queens reading to children" is not a thought that anyone ever woke and just organically had.

That doesn't make that side, or any side, wrong. But it's a data point it's not reasonable to expect all of us to tiptoe around and pretend we don't notice.

 

[catsmate]

So just dismissed out of hand, because you've decide the sources don't meet your threshold, regardless of the police records for several of them being available?

No I dismissed them because they're overblown, irrelevant and fictional.
What one would expect from the sources you copies them from.

Color me unsurprised. You have a pre-existing belief, and you will not allow that belief to be challenged. You will justify and rationalize any challenge to your belief, going so far as to cast aspersions on any evidence as being tantamount to heresy.

Pot---Kettle.

And just what are my "beliefs"?

FWIW, I used to think drag was fun and entertaining. I had my own beliefs challenged by actual exposure, by actual events, by documented problems, and by witnessing the way in which many (not all) drag performers caricature females. I changed my mind based on evidence and consideration.

Right.....

Are you willing to actually challenge your own beliefs?

I have. Though I tend to react to facts and evidence.

As you're perfectly well aware, as is everyone else reading, your collection of anecdotes and right-wing scare stories have been debunked.
Here's a summary.
1. Outright lie.
2. Outright lie.
3. Outright lie.
4. Irrelevant and unconnected to DQSH.
5. Irrelevant.
6. Deliberately overblown.
So none of your "links" have any relevance to the discussion.


Good grief, the stench of homophobic bigotry around here.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'll take "**** that isn't true for $200" Here's a source that says you're wrong. In fact, it says they do pantomime plays every year at least! They even star the wonderful NPH!!!!

So what were you saying about being uninformed and bias?

I don't think it's quite the same thing. Just like the pantomime our local brits are mentioning bears little resemblance to Marcel Marceau...

IIRC (and I likely don't) "pantomime" has more to do with the style of make-up and costume, being very exaggerated. Its history is in stage performances, where makeup especially has to be exaggerated otherwise audience members in the back seats can't see any facial expressions.

 

[plague311]

If there's other discourse out there about a specific demographic reading to children I don't know about it.

There are tons of story hours. Superheroes, wizards, just regular mothers\fathers, etc.

I'm not saying only Drag Queens are reading to children, I'm saying Drag Queens are the only specific group I'm aware of that we're arguing about needing to read to children.

We're not arguing that Drag Queens need to read to children. We're arguing that there's no good reason to refuse Drag Queens that want to read to children the opportunity for no other reason than they're Drag Queens. Do you agree or disagree?

My point is this whole debate doesn't feel organic to me. "You know what the world needs? More Drag Queens reading to children" is not a thought that anyone ever woke and just organically had.

Someone had to because it exists. I don't know what an "organic" argument feels like, but this is as organic as any other I've participated in, I'd wager. People are trying to stop something from happening, with no good reason, and others are saying that they don't want that something stopped. Sounds like the makeup of a metric **** ton of arguments taking place all over.

That doesn't make that side, or any side, wrong. But it's a data point it's not reasonable to expect all of us to tiptoe around and pretend we don't notice.

I, personally, haven't been tiptoeing or pretending not to notice. I just don't know that you've presented a side of the argument that really matters.

People dress in drag. Those people also want to read to kids. They organized these events themselves, found people interested, found funding, and are now making it happen (have for going on a decade according to the research I, and others, have posted in this thread).

The real question, is why does it bother people when it's a) voluntary to both attend or host b) has been proven not to hurt anyone c) is educational for children.

 

[plague311]

I don't think it's quite the same thing.

Thank you for your feedback.

 

[Upchurch]

Oooh fuzzy lines! Those are male actors, who I believe are all male-presenting heterosexuals, who are performing an acting role, where the characters they are acting are drag queens!

Good movie, too.

And then, there is straight cis Kathleen Turner who played Chandler’s gay drag queen father on Friends for a couple of seasons.

 

[Emily's Cat]

To be fair, as I recall Emily’s Cat doesn’t post on the weekends. I’d be careful reading anything into her silence during these periods.

Sorry folks, I've got a family and friends, and my weekends and holidays are spent with them. You guys are how I fill up my down time during work Sometimes - like over the last few months - work is busy enough that I barely manage to post once a week here. It's just now slowed down enough for me to take part in discussions with more than a passing comment.

That said, you can find a number of sex offenders and child abusers in any profession/subgroup. Evidence would not be finding a few, but rather a statistically significant higher proportion.

I think it's a combination of factors, not just prevalence. Any profession that works with children will attract a higher proportion of predators than the general populace. But there are supposed to be safeguards in place to prevent those predators gaining access to children. When a teacher or a daycarer is found to be a predator, they're removed quickly, the safeguards are reviewed, loopholes closed... and in many cases those schools or daycares put a huge amount of effort into assuring parents that this was a rare event that is completely not condoned and the school/care org takes it very, very seriously.

The problem with DQSH is that there seem to be little to no safeguards in place, and the occasions where there has been inappropriate behavior (posting photos of kids from DQSH on a sexualized instagram page, inviting children to roll around on top of the performer, wearing age-inappropriate clothing, performing age-inappropriate dances or songs)... There is little to no effort put into assuring parents that their children are safe. In fact, the trend lately has been to accuse any concerned or outraged parents or citizens of being "right wing bigots" because they object to unvetted, age-inappropriate content and behavior being pushed in front of children.

It's made even more difficult because DQSH is being introduced under the auspices of teaching "gender diversity" to children. Even though drag queens are NOT transgender, it has been rolled under the same "umbrella", and anything that questions or challenges the appropriateness of it gets treated as "transphobia". Hell, we've already seen accusations of "gay panic" in this thread, even though that has little to nothing to do with any of the objections that have been raised to DQSH (with one exception, by which nobody is surprised).

So here we have the perfect storm: a lack of basic child safeguarding, inappropriate performance and/or behavior, introduction of adult themed entertainment and content, AND it cannot be challenged or questioned because to do so is evil bigotry.

Seriously - many of the people who are steadfastly defending DQSH are most likely doing so because it has been rolled under "trans". Not because they have any deep love of drag shows, not because they're passionate about drag being shown to kids, not because they are super dedicated to children being read to... but because it has been associated in their minds with "trans" and anything that isn't 100% pro-trans-everything is heretical evil to them.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Nobody said it was. But pantomime is very close to drag,, it's part of the same tradition.

This is like saying that burlesque is very close to opera. Both are performed on stage and include music and dance.

Honestly, pantomime performances are very much NOT AT ALL like drag performances. The similarity begins and ends with the fact that *some* pantomime shows include males in elaborate female clothing as part of the performance.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Most drag queens are pretty proud of their costume design skills.

Some of the costumes are quite impressive, some of them I would even consider artistic expression.

 

[Emily's Cat]

I'd also be pissed if I found a few examples of something happening but couldn't use it to tar and feather an entire group of people. I say generalizations for all!

Props for at least admitting that none of the claims you made actually happened at a drag event, and that the people who run the events put disclaimers out that children shouldn't attend when, in fact, children shouldn't attend.

Lots of growth in this post. Good stuff. Food for thought *num num num*

Alternatively... maybe consider that drag performers aren't the best option for reading events aimed at young children, that "challenging sexuality and gender norms" isn't a topic for either reading events or for young children... and maybe invite some mascots or age-appropriate cosplay enthusiasts to read to kids instead?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Literally zero people who weren't already homophobic ever associated NAMBLA with gay rights.

And yet a whole bunch of the pushback to gay rights was very explicitly because NAMBLA was literally part of the gay rights movement. Go read some history.

Lesbians opposed this "joined forces" approach from the beginning, and were ignored. It was lesbians who FINALLY got NAMBLA removed from the gay rights organizations and divorced from LGB efforts. At which point... wow, look how fast popular support changed!

 

[Thermal]

No it is not. If we can't find good reason to restrict something before we even get to the benefits of it, why move on? This is trying to prove a negative territory. You can go back and read the replies to Thermal, where he gets straight answers over and over.

Nitpick: never got a straight answer. "It totes encourages inclusivity and creativity" is the most vacuous non-answer imaginable. If you claim otherwise, let's hear the evidence. Specific to men in dresses reading stories, mind you.

I mean, an LGBTQ+ Tea Party Meet and Greet, I would totally get. Gives a chance to ask about the different lifestyles in a friendly, cooperative setting. Totally get that.

Men in dresses contracted to reading children stories just seems...I dunno...strangely specific. Kind of like a hiring requirement for trans ski instructors. Just....not clicking as a thing.

 

[Emily's Cat]

//Half honest Devil Advocate, Half actual question I'm actually asking//

What is the value in having a specific demographic read to children though?

I mean "Specific Demographics come read to children" doesn't really seem to be a thing outside of this one context.

Are "Drag Queens" really that vital for a child's world view?

Let us be honest is the "We're doing it because the Republicans have a problem with it" in there absolutely nowhere no matter how hard we look?

That really is the heart of the problem. There's no specific value to having Drag Queens doing the reading. It benefits an adult political effort, it has no intrinsic value for the children.

And any opposition to having SPECIFICALLY drag queens doing the reading is cast as being bigoted right-wing hyperbole. It makes it really easy to tap dance around the core question of "why do you think drag queens are appropriate for a reading effort?"

The question is a legitimate question, and the closest we've come to anyone answering that is Darat telling everyone to go read the DQSH mission statement. Which gives the drag queen's reason... but still doesn't address why on earth the DQ is such an important element of SH in the first place, and why the focus is on the DQ rather than on the kids.

 

[Emily's Cat]

If we're looking for reasons something should not be, it is more than sufficient that we find those lacking. There really isn't much reason to move onto why something should be if we can't support it being restricted.

Convince me that we should NOT start up a "Pole Dancer Story Hour" during which professional strippers and pole dancers show up in toned-down version of their stage costumes, perform toned-down versions of their stage shows, and also read stories to kids lauding and normalizing "sex work".

Tell me why that wouldn't be a good idea.

Because the reasons of "Drag is predominantly adult entertainment in the US, encompassing adult and sexual themes, often involving sexualized costume, and oh, by the way, is also a parody of females in general" doesn't seem to be something you consider worth thinking about.

 

[plague311]

Seriously - many of the people who are steadfastly defending DQSH are most likely doing so because it has been rolled under "trans". Not because they have any deep love of drag shows, not because they're passionate about drag being shown to kids, not because they are super dedicated to children being read to... but because it has been associated in their minds with "trans" and anything that isn't 100% pro-trans-everything is heretical evil to them.

Your mind reading abilities leave a metric **** ton to be desired. I can't speak for others, but literally none of these apply to me or why I'm participating in this thread. Not a single one you've mentioned.

Do you know my stance? It's none my ******* business what other people do with their kids. I don't pretend that it's my ******* business to tell other people what events are acceptable for their children. ESPECIALLY if those events don't cause any harm to the children, and the children get something out of it. I don't give a **** if it's included under the trans flag. I don't see any harm in it because there is no ******* harm in it. As has been proven by both yourself and others in this thread.

Alternatively... maybe consider that drag performers aren't the best option for reading events aimed at young children, that "challenging sexuality and gender norms" isn't a topic for either reading events or for young children... and maybe invite some mascots or age-appropriate cosplay enthusiasts to read to kids instead?

Why? Are we sure those people haven't molested or assaulted children? Will the children understand the material they're being read or have more fun with a mascot or some cosplay enthusiast? Like I said, I can't see problem with it because there is no problem with it, at least not one that has been identified yet. So far the only reason I'm seeing for people wanting to stop DQSH is...well, they just don't like it. No other reason.

And that, to me, is ******* stupid.