DR. SANJAY VASHI, Sub-Continent Homeopath

tkingdoll said:
I know this might sound a bit naive, but please bear with me! How can something actually be that dilute? What is the process that is undertaken to get the dilution? Say I have, I dunno, a drop of Belladonna, and I want to get a 30c dilution. I can't put that one drop into 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 drops of water, stir it all up, then bottle the lot.
Yeah, you run out of water pretty fast. You'd need a bigger universe just so you can fit some of the higher dilutions.
So maybe I put my drop of Belladonna into a litre of water, then take a drop of that and put it into another litre, and keep repeating until I have the correct dosage.
That's exactly how you do it.
But what happens to all the water I discard? Wouldn't it be dangerous (it does have poison in it) and wasteful to pour it away?
Not really. The mother tinctures are not that concentrated. Regarding wasteful, not much. You don't need to use a liter at each step, you can use a centiliter or a deciliter. That way you'd get 10 or 100 steps out of each liter of solvent. And in the last few steps you don't waste anything, and the number of doses you end up with grows quite fast. Or you can just sell blank pills, no one can tell the difference.
And how long would the process take? Can we get the homeopaths prosecuted for wasting water during times of drought etc?
They use machines these days, I believe.
And if that is the method, then surely all the water in the system of the homeopath's resident country must have been through a homeopathic process at least once before?
Water is being diluted and succussed all the time, everywhere, with every possible solvent.
How do they account for the molecules already present?
They don't. This is one of those questions that makes them close their eyes, voer their ears and go "LALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"
What about the chemicals added to tap water etc?
Same protocol as above. Although some pretend that since you keep adding the same contaminants at each step, they somehow are not potentized. Logic would dictate that they are potentized, and the end result has all contaminants at all levels of dilution, but logic and homeopathy don't often meet.
Sorry for so many basic questions, I'm really trying to get my head round the logistics of the stuff.
How anyone can believe this crap is beyond me.
 
Mojo said:
Your second suggestion is more or less the case, except that I think (for a 100 fold dilution) they take 1ml and add it to 100ml of solvent each time, than shake it and repeat the process.

Thanks for that. So what do they do with the 99ml each time that they don't need? Pour it away?

I wonder if anyone has tried to attack them with this 'homeopaths waste water' angle. A lot of the environmentalists I know are also quite woo. This argument might be just the ticket.
 
Donks said:
Yeah, you run out of water pretty fast. You'd need a bigger universe just so you can fit some of the higher dilutions.


That's what I meant though. How can these dilutions exist if there isn't enough water? Am I missing something major here?
 
tkingdoll said:
That's what I meant though. How can these dilutions exist if there isn't enough water? Am I missing something major here?
You only need all the water if you do the dilution in one step. By doing it in many steps you reduce how much water you need, as long as you waste most of the solvent you potentized at each step.
Say you want to make a 3X remedy. You can:
1) put 1 part mother tincture in 999 parts solvent and mix, ending up with 1000 doses, or
2) put 1 part MT in 9 parts solvent, mix. Take 1 part and put it in 9 parts solvent. The other 9 parts go down the drain. Repeat. So you waste 17.01 parts of solvent and .99 parts of the MT and you end up with 10 doses.
Are these 2 equivalent? As far as dilution goes, yes. Would a homeopath consider them equivalent? No clue. They claim the sequential shaking and diluting actually serves a purpose beyond numbing the mind of the buyer.
 
Why can't they produce a super-homeopathy remedy by using a master of a mixture of everything and diluting it repeatedly.

So no matter what the medical problem is the dilution has the remedy and say 999 other ones. As homeopathy is perfectly safe these other substances shouldn't harm anyone, and the one that is needed is there for curing!

It would result is a diagnosis free treatment, whatever is wrong with you the super remedy would cure it!
 
pjh said:
Why can't they produce a super-homeopathy remedy by using a master of a mixture of everything and diluting it repeatedly.

So no matter what the medical problem is the dilution has the remedy and say 999 other ones. As homeopathy is perfectly safe these other substances shouldn't harm anyone, and the one that is needed is there for curing!

It would result is a diagnosis free treatment, whatever is wrong with you the super remedy would cure it!
Homeopaths claim that some remedies nullify each other. Yes, it's an excuse they use when their wares don't work.
 
Donks said:
So you waste 17.01 parts of solvent and .99 parts of the MT and you end up with 10 doses.
Or, to take a more realistic view, you've wasted 1 part of MT, 27 parts of solvent, your time and the patient's money. ;)
 
tkingdoll said:
I know this might sound a bit naive, but please bear with me! How can something actually be that dilute?

[...snip...]

Sorry for so many basic questions, I'm really trying to get my head round the logistics of the stuff.

Aha tkingdoll,

somehow I think you've reached your WTF ... :wow2: moment. Yep, it was like that with me too, and the same for plenty others here, according to separate threads on homeopathy.

Welcome to the club ;)
 
Mojo said:
Or, to take a more realistic view, you've wasted 1 part of MT, 27 parts of solvent, your time and the patient's money. ;)
You sKeptic! Prove homeopathy doesn't work! Send your thesis, backup by 15 Nobel Prize winners in Chemistry, to Dr. MAS by tomorrow for a chance to win a croissant at lunch.
 
Donks said:
You sKeptic! Prove homeopathy doesn't work! Send your thesis, backup by 15 Nobel Prize winners in Chemistry, to Dr. MAS by tomorrow for a chance to win a croissant at lunch.
:D
 
Blue Bubble said:
Aha tkingdoll,

somehow I think you've reached your WTF ... :wow2: moment.

No no, that was back in June when I joined the forum! I've had these questions since then but only just got around to asking them. I was aware of the 'magic water' theory of homeopathy before but not familiar with the logistics.
 
No O.D.

Good Morning,

I am alive and well this morning, no worse for having taken three homeopathic cures at once. However ...

What kind of idiot takes two pills made out of lactose when she knows she has lactose intolerance?????

I had a few hours of abdominal discomfort. If I had taken the pills at the full dosage recommended -- 2-4 tablets every 2-4 hours -- I would have been very sick. Not from the homeopathic medicine, but from the lactose base.

When you consider how many people suffer from lactose intolerance, it's surprising a base is used that would make those people ill. In order to read the labels on these concoctions, I had to use reading glasses and a magnifying glass. We are talking the smallest of small print. How many people carry a magnifying glass with them when they shop?

So far, there's no sign of a poison oak rash and my bladder feels just fine, thank you.

"definitely," I believe alcohol is used as a base because it will keep microbes from growing in the solution. Plain distilled water could become stagnant and contaminated after the vial is open.

The liquid solutions usually come in a bottle with a dropper. The solution is drawn up into the dropper and then squirted into the patient's mouth. If the dropper touched the patient's lips or tongue and then was inserted back into the bottle of distilled water ... arrrgg... it could be a microbial mess in a day or two.

As I understand it, the dilute solutions are supposed to carry the memory of the medicinal substance.

We are probably doing ourselves a disservice when we describe homeopathic remedies as plain tap water. Distilled tap water is a more accurate term. Distilled tap water that supposedly has the memory of an undetectable amount of some substance.

The pills ... oh, my gosh ... the pills. I'm here to tell you that when it comes to homeopathic sugar pills, we are talking about a substance that can harm. For those of you who don't know the symptoms of lactose (milk sugar) intolerance, I give you this....

Symptoms of lactose intolerance:

* Gas
* Abdominal pain or cramping
* Nausea
* Diarrhea

Symptoms of milk allergy:

* Itchy, red rash
* Eczema
* Hives
* Swelling of the lips, mouth, tongue, face, or throat
* Abdominal pain or cramping
* Gas
* Diarrhea
* Vomiting
* Wheezing

http://www.nfsmi.org/Information/Newsletters/lactoseintolerance.html

The things I do for science.

Gayle
 
Re: No O.D.

Gayle said:
Good Morning,

I am alive and well this morning, no worse for having taken three homeopathic cures at once. However ...

[...snip...]

The things I do for science.

Gayle

Phewwww... I was almost certain we had lost you, Gayle.

Gotta be careful when you're dealing with such wickedly strong medicine ...

Welcome back to the world of the living. :p
 
The birth of superstition...

Post Hoc Fallacy

The post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this therefore because of this) fallacy is based upon the mistaken notion that simply because one thing happens after another, the first event was a cause of the second event. Post hoc reasoning is the basis for many superstitions and erroneous beliefs.

http://skepdic.com/posthoc.html

Coincidence or ????? You be the judge!

As some of you may recall, I fearlessly swallowed three homeopathic remedies on Friday, one of which was for "bladder irritation."

This weekend I had to seek emergency treatment for passage of a kidney stone. How do you think that makes my bladder feel?

To me, this is a good example of the way people become superstitious believers in the paranormal, pseudo-scientific and supernatural.

The neighbor from whom I borrowed the homeopathic remedies is convinced my medical emergeny was the result of taking the bladder irritation pill when I did not, in fact, have bladder irritation.

When I was a child, and all the way through my teen years, I was susceptible to post hoc reasoning. If I had not been actively taught to recognize fallacious reasoning, then I, too, would probably be thinking the sugar pills had done me in.

The facts of the matter are that I began experiencing some sharp kidney thumps on Wednesday, several days prior to my fearless gulping. The pills and liquid I swallowed on Friday were inert substances, except for the lactose and alcohol base.


The medical evidence indicates that I was going to experience a kidney stone episode, no matter what. This was not a new experience for me. Imaging tests a while back showed I still had a speck of sand in the interior of my left kidney. The medical decision was made to let it be. Unforturnately, a tiny little speck of sand feels like the Rock of Gibraltar when it makes its exit.

There is a part of me that wishes that I could go to the Vitamin Shoppe and buy an $8 bottle of homeopathic remedy that would fix me right up. Treating that kidney has cost thousands of dollars, not all of which is covered by insurance.

I do not blame people for wishing and desperately hoping that homeopathy will help them. In the USA, the cost of medical treatment and insurance is staggering. According to recent news reports 47 million Americans went without medical insurance during all or part of the last two years.

My personal goal is to help actively teach critical thinking skills to folks in my community who have been let down by our educational system. I also work as a community activist to help people receive proper medical care.

More and more M.D.s in this community refuse to see patients who cannot put down cash on the barrelhead. A single 15 minute doctor's appointment may cost more than an entire day's wages for a service worker who does not have medical insurance. In my experience, Europeans and well-insured Americans have trouble understanding the desperation of the uninsured and under-insured low-wage worker in the USA.

The lack of affordable access to basic medical care is one of the factors that drives some people to seek less expensive pseudo-scientific and quack options. I'm working in my community to change that, even if it's only one person at a time.

Right now ... I need a few days to recover. I would still drink a quart of water-based homeopathic remedy without fear. The doctors wants me to drink more water than usual, so I would actually be following my westernized doctor's orders.

Gayle
 
Mojo said:
There is someone on the forum who has actually had a job doing this in the past, so may be a better person to answer this point. I think it's Ashles
Guilty as charged. :)

Tkingdoll said:
Thanks for that. So what do they do with the 99ml each time that they don't need? Pour it away?
What, with the money they make from all of this? They don't throw anything away.

I used to stand in the back room of a holistic healing centre with some small bottles which I had filled with tap water (yes, tap water).
Then I took a bottle of homeopathic medicine (from off the shelf of the shop) and put a single drop of it into each of the water filled bottles. The original bottle then lived on a shelf in the back room with a load of half used other remedies.
Then I was instructed to shake each bottle (this was really stressed as being important).
Voila - they go on the shelves and people exchange real money for them.

When the bottles are all sold I took out my little original bottle from the shelf of the back room and did it all again.
(The irony was that I was supposed to be there to do their accounts, but I ended up doing loads of other stuff).

This wasn't a tiny little shop - it was a large well known and successful shop that is still operating now.

I assume the original mixtures are made slightly more scientifically (actually, why would I assume that?), but none of the customers to the shop knew that this was part of the process.

Although as we all know very few people who believe in homeopathy actually know what homeopathy is or how it is claimed to work.
 
Lactose Pills

Ashles,

Did you prepare the lactose pills, or do you have knowledge of how they are prepared? A drop of solution on each pill, then into a bottle? Or what?

Gayle
 
Re: Lactose Pills

Gayle said:
Did you prepare the lactose pills, or do you have knowledge of how they are prepared? A drop of solution on each pill, then into a bottle? Or what?
No, sorry - we didn't stock those.
 

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