DR. SANJAY VASHI, Sub-Continent Homeopath

[Psiload]

Once again, and IMHO, the best way to test a homeopath is to have him/her tell you the difference between his "remedies" and plain 'ol solvent in a properly blinded test. By whatever means he/she chooses... dowsing, telekenesis, actually "healing" someone of some condition or another, etc... doesn't matter how.

When you get into trying to determine what qualifies as a "cured" person, you're just asking for trouble. Short of healing an amputee, you're looking a judgement call to one degree or another.

This is also a great way to determine whether the homeopath in question is scammer, or merely deluded. A deluded guy will probably be amazed that you'd let him attempt such a seemingly simple task and jump at the chance, whereas a knowing scammer would probably refuse to participate in such a cut and dry test.

 

[Gulliver]

Possible Protocol Problem...

KRAMER asked that I post my concern here.

There are forms of diabetes that are caused by underlying diseases. In my case, my carcinoid cancer causes my diabetes. I receive a long-acting depot shot of sandostatin on a monthly basis. This shot suspresses the cancer and the resultant symptoms of diabetes for about four weeks.

A relevant reference: http://www.docguide.com/dg.nsf/PrintPrint/FD564F2608A3529C852566CC004F6682

While normal insulin is too volatile to deliver by a depot infusion, I believe the there are insulin analogues that could be.

I should elaborate that the depot infusion leaves a small lump in a large muscle (and very painfully so), but leaves no other evidence.

My concern is that the applicant could mask the symptoms of diabetes by a long-acting depot infusion. The applicant might chose a patient with an underlying, but treatable, disease or use an insulin analogue. JREF would be hard pressed to detect fraud of this type with the 72-hour isolation protocol.

KRAMER has indicated that he will be watchful for this type of fraud.

I hope this helps.

Regards,
Gulliver

 

[Ducky]

Once again, and IMHO, the best way to test a homeopath is to have him/her tell you the difference between his "remedies" and plain 'ol solvent in a properly blinded test. By whatever means he/she chooses... dowsing, telekenesis, actually "healing" someone of some condition or another, etc... doesn't matter how.

When you get into trying to determine what qualifies as a "cured" person, you're just asking for trouble. Short of healing an amputee, you're looking a judgement call to one degree or another.

This is also a great way to determine whether the homeopath in question is scammer, or merely deluded. A deluded guy will probably be amazed that you'd let him attempt such a seemingly simple task and jump at the chance, whereas a knowing scammer would probably refuse to participate in such a cut and dry test.

I would agree. the diagnosis and healing bit is far too complicated and tricky to test and have screens for fraud in place. would there be drug testing? How could we possibly have screens in place for all the ways to administer medicine without knowledge of observers?

I think he should be able to point out his treatments vs. controls in a blinded test.

 

[deathphoenix]

The following is based on the assumption that homeopaths use "natural" healing techniques including the use of "herbal" medicine.

I don't know if homeopathy really counts as paranormal. Many pharmaceuticals, for example, are based on chemicals found in traditional herbal medicine.

Forgive my ignorance, since I'm new, but I thought JREF was about awarding the paranormal, for which there is no scientific explanation. If I can cure cancer, or diabetes, or HIV, by administering natural herbal medicine, I don't think that's paranormal at all. Amazing, yes. Paranormal, no.

Certain chemicals in the herbal medicine that I administer might very well kill off the cancer cells, render the body capable of making insulin (or regain its normal reaction to insulin), or develop a resistence to HIV, but while this is certain to get me the Nobel prize, it still wouldn't count as a "paranormal" cure. A paranormal cure would be if I cured a patient by laying my hands on him (or some other benign activity).

 

[Blue Bubble]

The following is based on the assumption that homeopaths use "natural" healing techniques including the use of "herbal" medicine.

Simple answer: your assumption is actually wrong.

Search for the numerous recent postings on what homeopathy actually is. See in particular posts from Rolfe, MRC_Hans, Mojo, Donks, and Badly Shaved Monkey.

To make things interesting, please come back to this thread and report what you understand homeopathy to be in, say, 2 days. I know I'd be interested

 

[Psiload]

Simple answer: your assumption is actually wrong.

Search for the numerous recent postings on what homeopathy actually is. See in particular posts from Rolfe, MRC_Hans, Mojo, Donks, and Badly Shaved Monkey.

To make things interesting, please come back to this thread and report what you understand homeopathy to be in, say, 2 days. I know I'd be interested

So would I.

I love to see the sort of mental spit take a rational person does when they first discover what homeopathy is really all about.

I did mine when I was still in high school. You could've knocked me over with a feather. I refused to believe the Mechanical Drawing teacher who explained the "science" behind homeopathy while rolling his eyes.

I called him a liar.

I went to the library.

I returned to his class and apologized.

 

[Bronze Dog]

The following is based on the assumption that homeopaths use "natural" healing techniques including the use of "herbal" medicine.

I don't know if homeopathy really counts as paranormal. Many pharmaceuticals, for example, are based on chemicals found in traditional herbal medicine.

Forgive my ignorance, since I'm new, but I thought JREF was about awarding the paranormal, for which there is no scientific explanation. If I can cure cancer, or diabetes, or HIV, by administering natural herbal medicine, I don't think that's paranormal at all. Amazing, yes. Paranormal, no.

Certain chemicals in the herbal medicine that I administer might very well kill off the cancer cells, render the body capable of making insulin (or regain its normal reaction to insulin), or develop a resistence to HIV, but while this is certain to get me the Nobel prize, it still wouldn't count as a "paranormal" cure. A paranormal cure would be if I cured a patient by laying my hands on him (or some other benign activity).

My quick and dirty explanation of homeopathy:

First priniciple: "Like cures like". They find stuff that causes certain symptoms in healthy people. This stuff is used in homeopathic treatments for diseases with those symptoms. (I'm guessing that's where the homeo- part comes from.) Although this is nonsense, it's not the height of it...

Dillution: Homeopaths dilute their remedy over and over again, often employing magic "succession" rituals that involve shaking in all three axes 10 times, striking against a peice of leather, or other such stuff. (It seems to me that every homeopath has a different method.) They continue the process, usually until there's nothing left of the solute. They also claim that the remedy gets more potent with fewer side effects the more they dilute it. Often, they magically transfer the healing effects to sugar and lactose pills.

One of the tests many of us would like to see homeopaths try is to distinguish homeopathic water/pills from untreated water/pills.

 

[deathphoenix]

My quick and dirty explanation of homeopathy:

First priniciple: "Like cures like". They find stuff that causes certain symptoms in healthy people. This stuff is used in homeopathic treatments for diseases with those symptoms. (I'm guessing that's where the homeo- part comes from.) Although this is nonsense, it's not the height of it...

Dillution: Homeopaths dilute their remedy over and over again, often employing magic "succession" rituals that involve shaking in all three axes 10 times, striking against a peice of leather, or other such stuff. (It seems to me that every homeopath has a different method.) They continue the process, usually until there's nothing left of the solute. They also claim that the remedy gets more potent with fewer side effects the more they dilute it. Often, they magically transfer the healing effects to sugar and lactose pills.

One of the tests many of us would like to see homeopaths try is to distinguish homeopathic water/pills from untreated water/pills.

Okay, thanks for your most excellent explanation. Now I see the difference between homeopathy and, say, Chinese herbal medicine (which was what I previously compared homeopathy with), and also why homeopathy would be paranormal if it works.

So Dr. Sanjay Vashi's supposed "cure" has to involve a control and his "magic" homeopathic pills, both of which are chemically identical, but his pills have been magically infused with the power of homeopathy (or perhaps, the base remedy material has been diluted so many times that both pills are effectively identical in chemical makeup).

So, for example, if both sets of these chemically-identical pills were given to two patients with identical symptoms, the patient given the homeopathy-enhanced pills should be miraculously cured (or be symptom free for a period of time), while the control patient should continue to suffer from the same symptoms as before.

Am I missing something here?

 

[Squidd]

You're missing the part where this makes sense to anyone remotely rational. But then, so are the rest of us.

 

[deathphoenix]

You're missing the part where this makes sense to anyone remotely rational. But then, so are the rest of us.

I suppose I'm in fine company, then.

 

[Reno]

The word 'dilute' doesn't really expose just how much water is added. 'Dilute' probaby makes most people think about adding a little water to concentrated fruit juice.

If a homeopathic remedy is 60C (I think this is the right term), it means that it has been diluted to a point where there is not enough water on the whole planet per one part of remedy. I don't think people realise just how silly homeopathy is.

I don't think I worded this post very well. My head is still fuzzy from the wine last night. If someone else could rephrase this post, it might make my head stop spinning.

 

[MRC_Hans]

Any homeopathic dilution can be equaled to a ratio of volumes, for instance, one drop in a liter, etc.

I have made a spreadsheet that shows those ratios given in various units of measure, up to 100C. For each potency, it shows the ratio of one drop (0,1ml) to a number of volumes: Liter, m2, etc, and to some more pictoral units like a swimming-pool, an ocean, etc.

Here is a short list of potencies where the volume of water to one drop (0.1 ml) is related to something in the real world:

6C = 4 Olympic class swimming-pools.
13C = 3/4 of all Earth's oceans.
16C = Sphere the size of Earth.
19C= 10 Spheres with same diameter as our Solar System
22C = 1 cubic light-year
26C = 1 Sphere with same diameter as the Milky Way

The very popular 30C equals one drop of mother tincture in nearly a hundred million galaxy-sized balls of water .

 

[Mojo]

Any homeopathic dilution can be equaled to a ratio of volumes, for instance, one drop in a liter, etc.

I have made a spreadsheet that shows those ratios given in various units of measure, up to 100C. For each potency, it shows the ratio of one drop (0,1ml) to a number of volumes: Liter, m2, etc, and to some more pictoral units like a swimming-pool, an ocean, etc.

Here is a short list of potencies where the volume of water to one drop (0.1 ml) is related to something in the real world:

6C = 4 Olympic class swimming-pools.
13C = 3/4 of all Earth's oceans.
16C = Sphere the size of Earth.
19C= 10 Spheres with same diameter as our Solar System
22C = 1 cubic light-year
26C = 1 Sphere with same diameter as the Milky Way

The very popular 30C equals one drop of mother tincture in nearly a hundred million galaxy-sized balls of water .

And, remember, the value of Avogadro's constant (which enables us to work out how many molecules are present in a particular amount of a substance) means that it is a virtual certainty that no molecules from the original remedy are present in dilutions of more than 12c or 24x (c = a 100-fold dilution, x = a 10-fold dilution).

Even before we get to this point, of course, we will reach the point at which the "remedy" substance is present in greater amounts as an impurity in the solvent than from the tincture originally used.

 

[Reno]

Well, I sure under-estimated 60C.

Thanks for clearing up my hung-over post Hans. /smile

 

[Mojo]

So Dr. Sanjay Vashi's supposed "cure" has to involve a control and his "magic" homeopathic pills, both of which are chemically identical, but his pills have been magically infused with the power of homeopathy (or perhaps, the base remedy material has been diluted so many times that both pills are effectively identical in chemical makeup).

So, for example, if both sets of these chemically-identical pills were given to two patients with identical symptoms, the patient given the homeopathy-enhanced pills should be miraculously cured (or be symptom free for a period of time), while the control patient should continue to suffer from the same symptoms as before.

Am I missing something here?

Well, apart from the fact that it's too small a sample size to draw a conclusion, there's also the matter of "individualisation."

Because a given remedy will not always appear to cure a particular condition (i.e. the patient will not necessarily get better while using a particular remedy) homeopaths claim that their remedies are specific to the individual patient, not to a specific disease. If a remedy doesn't appear to work (i.e. if the patient doesn't get better while taking it) a homeopath will just claim that it wasn't the correct remedy for that particular patient, and will just keep trying different remedies until the patient shows some improvement, and then claim a cure.

Edited to add: Of course, if a patient gets worse after taking a remedy, the homeopath will say that this is because the remedy works. This is known as "aggravation."

And we haven't even mentioned "miasms" yet.

Welcome to the Whacky World of Homeopathy!

 

[H3LL]

Would some clarity on the potency used for the cure be needed.

I have seen some homeopathic claims of potency so low as to be comparable to effective pharmacutical levels (I think it was 6c).

 

[delphi_ote]

Would some clarity on the potency used for the cure be needed.

I have seen some homeopathic claims of potency so low as to be comparable to effective pharmacutical levels (I think it was 6c).

Of what? Tree bark? Pollen? Sugar? You could eat a raw handfull of anything they prepare at 6c, but it won't cure anything.

 

[deathphoenix]

Well, apart from the fact that it's too small a sample size to draw a conclusion, there's also the matter of "individualisation."

Because a given remedy will not always appear to cure a particular condition (i.e. the patient will not necessarily get better while using a particular remedy) homeopaths claim that their remedies are specific to the individual patient, not to a specific disease. If a remedy doesn't appear to work (i.e. if the patient doesn't get better while taking it) a homeopath will just claim that it wasn't the correct remedy for that particular patient, and will just keep trying different remedies until the patient shows some improvement, and then claim a cure.

Edited to add: Of course, if a patient gets worse after taking a remedy, the homeopath will say that this is because the remedy works. This is known as "aggravation."

And we haven't even mentioned "miasms" yet.

Welcome to the Whacky World of Homeopathy!

I see that homeopathy is just as wacky, and requires just as much protocol tweaking, as your run-of-the-mill divination or conjuration application.

 

[Mojo]

Re: Possible Protocol Problem...

My concern is that the applicant could mask the symptoms of diabetes by a long-acting depot infusion. The applicant might chose a patient with an underlying, but treatable, disease or use an insulin analogue. JREF would be hard pressed to detect fraud of this type with the 72-hour isolation protocol.

A fraud of this type can be eliminated if a control group is used and a blinded protocol is used so that Dr. Vashi doesn't know which patients are actually being treated and which are the controls.

 

[Winterfrost]

The following is based on the assumption that homeopaths use "natural" healing techniques including the use of "herbal" medicine.

I don't know if you made the same mistake as I did. When I first heard "homeopathy" I thought it was the same as "naturopathy." Naturopaths seem much more common in my neck of the Great White North than homeopaths.

While I believe naturopathy and homeopathy are related, naturopaths will prescribe herbal remedies, fasting, etc. along with tap w... er... homeopathic remedies.