Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[Paulhoff]

At this point in our history it's not about that, but maybe some form of reusable energy that we can tap into.

If provable it would be up to you Geniuses to make something from this that's usable.

Imagine roads with power in them pulled from the field, separate from the vehicles.

Imagine someone opening a accredited science book and doing some real reading, imagine someone going back to school, maybe college, imagine someone learning the truth about the universe, imagine......, never mind I forgot who we where taking about.

Paul

 

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

Edge: You say that the tests conducted by the JREF are too much unlike your field activities. Then the key to success would be doing a test that is the same as your field activities. A little bit up the thread you mentioned actually finding gold in a creek. Could you find gold with a Randi peering over your shoulder? I'm sure a good test could be set up though it would take quite some effort to think up a scheme that will make sure you don't know where they want you to find gold.

Pherhaps hiding bits of gold in a creek that you find suitable for dowsing would be a good idea?

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Edge: You say that the tests conducted by the JREF are too much unlike your field activities. Then the key to success would be doing a test that is the same as your field activities. A little bit up the thread you mentioned actually finding gold in a creek. Could you find gold with a Randi peering over your shoulder? I'm sure a good test could be set up though it would take quite some effort to think up a scheme that will make sure you don't know where they want you to find gold.

Pherhaps hiding bits of gold in a creek that you find suitable for dowsing would be a good idea?

This idea has been discussed before. No useful protocol has materialised. For the reasons why, consider reading the thread if you want to contribute to the discussion, Delusions_O_Grandeur.

 

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

This idea has been discussed before. No useful protocol has materialised. For the reasons why, consider reading the thread if you want to contribute to the discussion, Delusions_O_Grandeur.

I can't read everything in advance to determine if I can jump into a thread full force, in this case I sprung the obsoletion trap. Now I at least know there's interesting material to find way up the thread.

Oh please, nobody peers over anyone's shoulder. I guess you don't understand how it works with these people. They always brag that they have this power and can demonstrate it anytime, anywhere, that is of course, until the real test comes along, and let the excuses begin.

I just have this really bad feeling that there's a spiritual revolution going on and I'm being left out in the cold by all the believers. I'm powerless, skeptical and I want to see miracles argh! (count = 0)

 

[GzuzKryzt]

I can't read everything in advance to determine if I can jump into a thread full force, in this case I sprung the obsoletion trap. Now I at least know there's interesting material to find way up the thread.
...

I won't force a 1400+ post thread on you, obviously. I also won't confirm that there's "interesting material to find way up the thread".

Perhaps you could skim it first. When your head has stopped spinning, or when your sides hace stopped hurting, consider reading it.

With you being a fellow dowser, most of us would value critical input from a different point of view.

 

[SezMe]

If I stood their long enough it would have, remember you were pressed for time I only had a few minutes to check the creek.
Do you think I should have wasted my time on your car or learn about the creek, you own the car!

How long would you have had to stand there dowsing the car? After all, it contains roughly two orders of magnitude more metal than the target tray which your rod reacted to in a matter of seconds? Also, down by the creek your rod reacted almost instantly and most dramatically by dipping vertically. Yet there is not a ton of gold there. In fact, we both commented about that creek had been worked over by dredges at least once, possibly many more times.

By me going to the creek I was figuring out a scenario of probabilities on which I could support a test there, where my test site would suit me, covering some of the expenses that I would incur to bring out the JREF team to that site which was comfortable for both purposes

No you weren't. You know very well that any test protocol will not depend on unverifiable field conditions. Therefore you know that no MDC testing will be done at Coffee Creek. Period. You know this is true, edge.

Second It's mostly iron so the reaction is less than the heavier elements, be it that the load that was concentrated in the area of the creek that we went to was the heavy spot of the area, it was unmistakably noticeable something I’m looking for, not your car.
Which we will see if I'm right about, won't we.

What was the tray made of?

Why do you think I talked with the owner after we parted company?

You talked to the owner about dredging for gold in Coffee Creek because you have convinced yourself that you can dowse.

What I’m really feeling is little dents in the field when it’s gold or other metals..

..which brings us right back to my previous question: Why did the rod not react to a ton of metal a foot away?

Some how there is a connection to the field, to the dent together.
The connection is in the form of electrical.
Imagine being able to feel the entire field of the Earth.
Then getting a work force out of it in electrical form through a machine and what could it do in other forms of machinary?

Very interesting. At Coffee Creek I asked you specifically if you were sensing magnetic or electrical fields and you were specific that you were detecting gravitational anomolies.

Which is it?

 

[colin]

<big snip>While we are waiting for responses from the JREF. <ditto>

You know, it would be cool if an official JREF representative would pop onto this thread and give everyone their two cents on edge’s “protocol” and potential test.

Or is that out of the question?

 

[Paulhoff]

You know, it would be cool if an official JREF representative would pop onto this thread and give everyone their two cents on edge’s “protocol” and potential test.

Or is that out of the question?

I'm not speaking in anyway for anyone for JREF, but I think they don't really have time.

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

Edge, this isn't the place to discuss protocol with me, as you know. Please contact me at jeff@randi.org.

Paul

 

[Patejdl]

Guys, the only right thing to do now is to absolutely ignore Edge. He alone will never come up with a decent and correct protocol and he clearly does not want to agree with a protocol that other people created.

It's 1 mil bucks for christ's sake!!! A test for 1 000 000 bucks should be as bullet-proof as it could be. And that requires for the test to be also double-blind. But Edge clearly does not understand what it means.....

It's useless.... he just doesn't have the power to understand anything... but shhhh.. don't tell him.. he might be sad

How will it continue?? After some time his frustration will raise and he will agree to a proper protocol and will fail again. His frustration with failing will again result in blaming the JREF for cheating or whatsoever. And it will go on and on like this. Kind of like "perpetual motion" but powered by self-dellusion.

But people like Edge provide our world a great service. They represent a warning to other people to never disconnect your brain from the logic by which this whole universe runs. Once you're disconnected you live in your own world cursed never to achieve what you really want in your life because you have set yourself goals and you believe things that do not exist in this reality.

Some people might contradict that in the past people were making all kinds of beautifull inventions because they beleived in something. These people have even been prosecuted because of their "beliefs". But the whole difference is that their beleifs were based on empiric knowledge heavily supported by logic. Dowsing is just a heavily subjective and empiric experience and is not by any kind of means supported by logic.

That's simply the main difference between people who might be able to achieve the goals of their belief and people who will never be able to achieve anything based on their self-dellusional beliefs.

So I call for a total EDGE ignoration until he agrees to take a proper test (which we normal beings and JREF will find proper... not him.. his opinion is ignored)

Who's with me???

 

[catbasket]

Patejdl,

I sympathise and can understand why you call for ignoring Edge, but I cannot agree. If only for the fence-sitters on the topic of dowsing we need to have people like EHocking doing all they can to get Edge to agree a testing protocol and take the prelim test.

Personally I'm happy to just throw in the odd sarcastic comment about how Edge failed the preilm test in 2004(? - I forget), was apparently ready to re-take the prelim test in May last year ... but now, almost thirteen months later, is still no closer to agreeing a double blind testing protocol.

Call me cynical, but as Edge has already managed to agree a prelim test protocol, do the test, accept it as fair, fail, and only later make up excuses as to why he failed, I find it extremely odd that he seems to have no concept of what a double blind test is. I also believe he has absolutely no intention of ever taking the MDC prelim test again - but of course that is just personal opinion.

So, Edge, how about you prove me wrong? Agree a protocol with JREF and take the prelim test ... or do you have as little faith in your alleged abilities as I do?

 

[Kenny 10 Bellys]

I find it mildly offensive that Edge, a man barely able to read and write, is talking in terms of gravitational anomalies and electromagnetic fields in relation to his stick with a coin taped to the end. Using science to try and explain a non-existant magical belief should be prosecutable offence in my opinion. You cannot appeal to science when you think you've figured something out, only to deny all science when it then proves you wrong.

I think Edge is wasting his time and ours. He has faith in his magic stick and faith is a most powerful tool for stupidity and ignorance. He is struggling to explain everything around him in terms that will allow him to retain his belief in dowsing, when all around him the evidence clearly shows he cant. He is deluded and therefore not worthy of the effort. I dont think we should ever be mean to him, but I believe we'd do better ignoring his nonsense than trying to talk sense into him.

 

[edge]

Again the only differences are the target will pass onto one spot and all of the containers empty or full.
And that I’m using a scale to aid me in my choices They will stipulate anything else they want like I have to scan all the containers.
They only want the metal picked out 7 of ten tries of ten.
If you can’t understand this, Kevin then it is you who is illiterate?
In the final I have to then get 8 of ten correct.

Because of the scales I can go to them or there can be volunteers to come here If I can set that up with the owners of the resort.
This part still hasn't been discussed.
The test would be the same there as in Florida, with the containers.
The tray was silver plating.
Why wouldn't they go to the resort?
They wanted at one point for me to go to Japan.
I plan on staying here for one more dredging season, which is the next opportunity below.
Do they know this?
Yes. See below.

Which means I’ll be ready in September, if I go to Florida then I will be ready in October.

 

[edge]

It's up to them now.

 

[Marcus]

It's up to them now.

I take it by this comment that you have submitted your protocol to JREF? What was their response? Can you post the protocol, as written, here? I don't see how you could avoid knowing that submitting a proper protocol is your responsibility, it has been discussed to death.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

Guys, the only right thing to do now is to absolutely ignore Edge. He alone will never come up with a decent and correct protocol and he clearly does not want to agree with a protocol that other people created.

It's 1 mil bucks for christ's sake!!! A test for 1 000 000 bucks should be as bullet-proof as it could be. And that requires for the test to be also double-blind. But Edge clearly does not understand what it means.....

It's useless.... he just doesn't have the power to understand anything... but shhhh.. don't tell him.. he might be sad

How will it continue?? After some time his frustration will raise and he will agree to a proper protocol and will fail again. His frustration with failing will again result in blaming the JREF for cheating or whatsoever. And it will go on and on like this. Kind of like "perpetual motion" but powered by self-dellusion.

But people like Edge provide our world a great service. They represent a warning to other people to never disconnect your brain from the logic by which this whole universe runs. Once you're disconnected you live in your own world cursed never to achieve what you really want in your life because you have set yourself goals and you believe things that do not exist in this reality.

Some people might contradict that in the past people were making all kinds of beautifull inventions because they beleived in something. These people have even been prosecuted because of their "beliefs". But the whole difference is that their beleifs were based on empiric knowledge heavily supported by logic. Dowsing is just a heavily subjective and empiric experience and is not by any kind of means supported by logic.

That's simply the main difference between people who might be able to achieve the goals of their belief and people who will never be able to achieve anything based on their self-dellusional beliefs.

So I call for a total EDGE ignoration until he agrees to take a proper test (which we normal beings and JREF will find proper... not him.. his opinion is ignored)

Who's with me???

I think I understand where you're coming from Patejdl.

Ignoring edge seems not the most productive path as long as he does not pull a Paul Carey
or a Nicole Spiese on us.

Allow me to repost what I said earlier:

...

Mike "edge" Guska displays a very common behaviour among people with claims of the paranormal. For specifics on said behaviour, one simply has to view this thread and make up his own mind.

A theoretical discussion on what applicants might do and not do - as it often happens in this subforum - often leads into dead ends.

This thread drives home two specific points, over and over and over:
1. Along with the obvious difficulties of designing an appropriate testing procedure, when exposed to the light outside the mind of their bearers, these abilities seem to work only in very specific circumstances.
2. The possessors of said abilities seem willing to bring up any ploy to avoid a test involving basic scientific criteria. Even with a possible reward of USD 1,000,000 for doing what they claim to be able to do. In edge's case, what they have been able to do for decades.

Albeit very consuming - time and energy and patience - this seems to be an integral part of the MDC. At least under the old rules.

It's a tough thing to endure. But we might be just the people to pull it off.

 

[Delusions_O_Grandeur]

With you being a fellow dowser, most of us would value critical input from a different point of view.

Ai, caught that just in time. Before people think I'm a real dowser I'd like to point out that I do not believe I can do it. I can't tell (deadly) white spirit from water, which is really bad concidering the fact that I used to test homeopathic remedies for myself.

 

[GzuzKryzt]

An official acknowledgement of edge's application. Finally.

 

[Spektator]

Well, edge, you asked me a hypothetical question a few days ago. Let me ask you one:

Assume you have cleared an area of creekbed and have decided there is no use going for gold there, because there is no gold to be found.

If someone came along the next week, mined that exact spot, and found twenty Troy ounces of gold the first day, what would you think then?

 

[SezMe]

The one thing I can't get the testers to realize is that A dowser has to also know were not to mine.
This has been proved by me.

I doubt anyone here thinks that it is a good idea to mine where there is no ore. It did not take any proof by you.

In answer to your previous question they won't do a test where I could prove this, in a river or creek. They say it's not double blind, in reality it's totally unknown to all.

No, edge, that is not the reason. You've been told the reason in this thread many times. The reason is that a dowsing test protocol will NEVER involve unknown field conditions.