Moderated Dowsing By Edge

[nathan]

Isn't that what we are attempting to do here - establish a protocol that could provide evidence to the unbelievers that he can dowse successfully?

That is correct, however there seems to be little evidence that any movement is being made in that regard.

For instance?

For example, the supposed 1/4 pound of pulling power the rods have. That seems to have disappeared. There seems to have been numerous back and forth with Tricky about geology (thanks Tricky for the interesting geology lessons). Now there's something about levitation.

He has been through a controlled test so I guess he understands it at least a little bit.

... doesn't seem so.

The thing about edge is that he tries.

As far as I can see he keeps missing the point.

 

[BillyJoe]

Click the "Switch Editor" button http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/helloworld2/editor/switchmode.gif when something like that happens. It will reveal a lot about how your text looks with all the code in place. For example, here is what your quote looked like with "advanced" editor in place. (square brackets replaced by curly brackets)


{quote=Paulhoff;2598503}
{COLOR=black}BillyJoe, I sure hope in real life you not as naïve of the real world so you seem to be here. {/{/COLOR}quote}

As you can see, you somehow wound up with oddly nested brackets.

Hmmm...somehow I must have inserted the tail end of the color tag (which is visible only in the "advanced" editor), into the tail end of the quote tag.
I am glad to see it was not a paranormal event.

...on the other hand, I wonder how I did that

Hmmm...

 

[Spektator]

I'm glad that JREF is giving me time.

(snip)
What I did was to use a hanging scale with a string attached to the clip on the scales with a loop at the end and I used a large target under it I made sure that the scale was zeroed and then let the reaction occur, the force of the resistance was what I measured.
I did this with out moving my arms or hands as perfectly still as I could.
I did the same thing with my digital scale it is capable of reading a total of 200 penny weight I put it on the silver tray and I maxed it at over 200.
(snip)

Very well, edge, let's go with your string and your scales and your target and refine the protocol in a way suggested by Tricky:


1. Required for the test: a target that the dowser agrees will cause his dowsing rod to exert at least 1/4 pound of force.
2. A set of ten identical containers (opaque and with opaque covers) large enough to completely contain the target.
3. "Null" material of identical weight to the target, but a material that DOES NOT attract the dowsing rod at all, small enough to be placed in the containers.
4. The scales and a string.
5. Two videocameras.
6. Two whistles.

PERSONNEL:
1. The dowser.
2. Two observers appointed by the dowser.
3. Two observers appointed by or acceptable to the JREF.
4. A videocamera operator.

PROCEDURE:
1. The camera operator will start the two videocameras recording.
2. The dowser will attach the string to the scale, as he has described.
3. In an open trial, the target and non-target materials will be placed in two containers, in plain sight of the dowser.
4. The dowser will verify that the target material attracts the dowsing rod with at least 1/4 pound of force and that the nontarget material has no effect on the rod.
5. The dowser will leave the area, together with the camera operator, one of his observers, and one of the JREF observers. Upon leaving the area, one of the observers will blow a whistle, one blast only.
6. On hearing the whistle, the remaining two observers will come into the test area and place the target material in one container and the dummy material in the nine remaining containers.
7. The remaining two observers will then place covers on all containers and will verify that the containers are, as far as possible, identical.
8. The observers will then use a random method of selection (e.g. coin tosses) to arrange the containers in a row, at least ten feet apart.
9. The observers will then blow the whistle, one blast only, and leave the area.
10. On hearing the whistle, the remaining two observers, the camera operator, and the dowser wil return to the area.
11. Taking turns, the two observers will move the containers to a spot beneath the scale. The dowser will test each one until he finds one that attracts his dowsing rod and exerts a 1/4-pound pull. That container will be set aside.
12. The team will then blow the whistle again, and the other two observers will return.
13. While being videotaped,the observer will open the container identified as containing the target.
14. If the container does indeed contain the target material, that is a hit; if it does not, that is a miss.
15. The test will be repeated potentially ten times, with the target being placed in a randomly-chosen container each time.
16. Eight or more hits will mean the dowser has succeeded. Three or more misses will mean the dowser has failed.


Since you say the effect is always reproducible,this should be an easy one for you to do. How about it?

 

[EHocking]

Very well, edge, let's go with your string and your scales and your target and refine the protocol in a way suggested by Tricky:


1. Required for the test: a target that the dowser agrees will cause his dowsing rod to exert at least 1/4 pound of force.
2. A set of ten identical containers (opaque and with opaque covers) large enough to completely contain the target.
3. "Null" material of identical weight to the target, but a material that DOES NOT attract the dowsing rod at all, small enough to be placed in the containers.
4. The scales and a string.
5. Two videocameras.
6. Two whistles.

PERSONNEL:
1. The dowser.
2. Two observers appointed by the dowser.
3. Two observers appointed by or acceptable to the JREF.
4. A videocamera operator.

PROCEDURE:
1. The camera operator will start the two videocameras recording.
2. The dowser will attach the string to the scale, as he has described.
3. In an open trial, the target and non-target materials will be placed in two containers, in plain sight of the dowser.
4. The dowser will verify that the target material attracts the dowsing rod with at least 1/4 pound of force and that the nontarget material has no effect on the rod.
5. The dowser will leave the area, together with the camera operator, one of his observers, and one of the JREF observers. Upon leaving the area, one of the observers will blow a whistle, one blast only.
6. On hearing the whistle, the remaining two observers will come into the test area and place the target material in one container and the dummy material in the nine remaining containers.
7. The remaining two observers will then place covers on all containers and will verify that the containers are, as far as possible, identical.
8. The observers will then use a random method of selection (e.g. coin tosses) to arrange the containers in a row, at least ten feet apart.
9. The observers will then blow the whistle, one blast only, and leave the area.
10. On hearing the whistle, the remaining two observers, the camera operator, and the dowser wil return to the area.
11. Taking turns, the two observers will move the containers to a spot beneath the scale. The dowser will test each one until he finds one that attracts his dowsing rod and exerts a 1/4-pound pull. That container will be set aside.
12. The team will then blow the whistle again, and the other two observers will return.
13. While being videotaped,the observer will open the container identified as containing the target.
14. If the container does indeed contain the target material, that is a hit; if it does not, that is a miss.
15. The test will be repeated potentially ten times, with the target being placed in a randomly-chosen container each time.
16. Eight or more hits will mean the dowser has succeeded. Three or more misses will mean the dowser has failed.


Since you say the effect is always reproducible,this should be an easy one for you to do. How about it?

Well done. I was also thinking - target material placed randomly beneath the scales and measure the reaction. Much more in keeping with the original claim. Few flaws in the appproach beyond the detail.

There's one "get out" for the dowser. Does it matter if the scales and weights themselves are metal? Should a more suitable material be found?

 

[edge]

There's one "get out" for the dowser. Does it matter if the scales and weights themselves are metal? Should a more suitable material be found?

No that won't matter since the target is larger than the scales it will pull down instead of up.
You’re right as long as the spot that the targets are transferred to is neutral which would be easier to find than a large area that is neutral to set ten containers on a 3’x 3’ is better than 20’x 3’ or 20’x 4’ with all the contaners set in one area.
Now I must do a test to see if the scales will read the same force in the same spot here with out the target in place if it is less then we might have something.

The other containers can be empty, and each time I check I can leave the area as each one is brought to the exact same spot.

Here's what I see when the target is removed the stick still goes to 2 onces and 3 is the limit that is because under this house there is still gold in the ground and other metals. When the target is replaced it goes to four ounces, son of a beach, it takes more than one brain sometimes.

So the more neutral the ground the less it will pull the scales If I can find it, One once with out the target would be great but not really necessary and it all depends on where.
It can’t be any worst than this ground, which should be easy to find anywhere but here.

 

[Spektator]

I disagree that the nontarget containers should be empty. A well-known stage conjuror does a trick in which one small container is filled with something heavy and placed among many empty containers. The stage magician can find the filled container almost every time because of a small but crucial difference between a container with something in it and an empty one--a non-dowsing difference. All containers need to be weighted with something.

 

[edge]

Tricky said,

What you are proposing is something that violates Newton's third law of physics -- an action for which there is no equal and opposite reaction. Since the greatest minds of all time have not succeeded in finding a violation to this law, you will understand why we doubt that you have stumbled across one.

There is no violation; we just can't observe what it is on the earth.
It is still a small force that needs to be amplified to see the results while in the magnetic field of the Earth.
Or if you want to see it as it is, take it to a micro-gravity situation and the reaction should be movement across the span between the dowser and the target, and this just using 12 watts that you’re body produces.

The other way on Earth is to see if the dowsers weight increases when attracting to a target underneath him, while standing on a set of scales.
Which will be my next test, does it exert a force on the whole body that can be measured.

Oh and there's more, because of what dowsing does as you approach a hidden target in the field.

The closer you get to the target the stronger the pull.
I'll let you think about that and what that could mean, it's all electrical in nature.

 

[edge]

I disagree that the nontarget containers should be empty. A well-known stage conjuror does a trick in which one small container is filled with something heavy and placed among many empty containers. The stage magician can find the filled container almost every time because of a small but crucial difference between a container with something in it and an empty one--a non-dowsing difference. All containers need to be weighted with something.

Ok plastic.

 

[Tricky]

Now I must do a test to see if the scales will read the same force in the same spot here with out the target in place if it is less then we might have something.

If you get the same reading/force with no target, then it means that dowsing doesn't work. If you can get a equally strong reading at any random location, in spite of the presence of a large target in close proximity, then I'm afraid your theories are shot to hell. How could you ever know if your dowsing rod was sensing a real target or something else?

 

[Paulhoff]

The other way on Earth is to see if the dowsers weight increases when attracting to a target underneath him, while standing on a set of scales.

Why in the first place would a dowser be any different then anyone else? Also since all forces have been accounted for, what is this new, unneeded force?

Paul

 

[Paulhoff]

How could you ever know if your dowsing rod was sensing a real target or something else?

And why does this rod only work in the hand of someone? Why does it never fall faster over water, gold, etc since it is so attracted to them?

Paul

 

[Tricky]

And why does this rod only work in the hand of someone? Why does it never fall faster over water, gold, etc since it is so attracted to them?

I've actually heard an explanation of that which is clever, but still evidenceless. I'm not saying it here though. I don't want to give Edge any more excuses.

 

[petre]

It seems he's got a good many tests in mind. With luck, one will demonstrate a previously unknown (at least, unknown to those here) force of the universe.

While the expected result of no deviate force will likely end only in another, "Perhaps dowsing simply doesn't work that way", it is interesting to wonder exactly what it might take to shorten the usual response by two words.

 

[edge]

If you get the same reading/force with no target, then it means that dowsing doesn't work. If you can get a equally strong reading at any random location, in spite of the presence of a large target in close proximity, then I'm afraid your theories are shot to hell. How could you ever know if your dowsing rod was sensing a real target or something else?

Ok you missed something; the target I am using exerts a force of a quarter pound.
With out it in that same location it exerts 3 ounces, the reason is this house sits on ground that's never been mined under.
That's because I'm in this part of the country.
My brother and I did some testing and used gold nuggets 2 of them, last night.
The difference is the scale doesn’t bottom out at 4 ounces but about three and a half, close enough.
If we add some more gold it will bottom out at 4 but how much?

Now tonight we will test again and see how it goes.
The large target worked better and we need only one box to hide it and the target is either there or not.
So, one target, one container, one spot on the ground, and a random number generator is all we will need.
All the container needs to do is hide the target or hide the fact that there is nothing there.
I’m using a large silver tray so I’ll need a large box to cover it.
It is absolutely easier to lock onto.

I need a bathroom scale that I will buy to see if I can make it quicker and easier with out restrictions to the stick. It will have to be digital and able to measure in tenths of a pound.
That is not a problem.

What I’m finding is that the more I dowse the more it burns my hands and tires my arms, so the resistance to the stick caused by the amount of dowsing is painful, but the visual readings definitely helps.
This also requires me to be as still as I can be while the reaction takes place.
And that is hard to do, but I'll over come I sure.

When I dowse for gold in the creek it's five minutes or so not hours.

I think I can over come all that with a bathroom scale the reason why is I can lock in on a smaller target with out hindrece to the dowsing stick.

It was way more accurate especially for the lack of the target in the spot.

It gives me visual cue on the amount of force with or with out a target, it is way more accurate, especially when the number of times I’m dowsing makes a difference in my endurance, as it seems to matter.

I still may have to take a break and split it in two days, five tries at up to 50 readings is tiring. But I'm also going to try to fix that.

So anywhere I do the test I will have to calibrate the readings, which is not a problem now.

I will do a test in another spot where my initial reading when the target is not in place is less than three ounces so the wear and tear on me is less and my endurance will possibly last the whole test, in one session possibly.

I know that is probable from the test I did the other day on sandstone that we did.

What I need to do is shrink the target too, possibly to the gold we now have with the same results I only have to hold the dowsing stick till it gets to 3 and a half ounces when the target is there, instead of 4.

Anything that will shorten the test and my contact with it.
The scales have improved the way I read this 100%
Wow I hit one button on the key board and I got Italics>?

 

[edge]

SezMe I called and I got an ansewer machine?

 

[Patejdl]

Why did I brought up the topic of dowsing 2 years ago to my father??

My father, a long time integrity engineer of mines, tunels and anything that has to do with sub-ground is a long beleiver in dowsing. No matter what evidence I threw at him, no matter what test I did with him, he would never loose the faith in something that just doesn't work. I'm a pro 3d graphician and I have a small company. In my attempts I even offered my father to especially do a custom motion capture test with him if his hands were actually rotating when the rods were moving. Such tests would prove that his hands are simply rotating but even after that such a person would not beleive. He would say some BS about rods being antenas and hands the motors... blahblahblahblah

But the outcome was positive somehow. I'm also an expert in self-relaxation techniques and techniques that conquer psychosomatisation so once I gave him instructions on how to specificaly concentrate during the dowsing so he might cancel the ideomotoric effect. Well guess what... it worked.. exactly 15 attempts and his rods weren't doing anything. My father was baffled and spent the rest of the day thinking about it.

And the iresult after 2 years??

My father told me that I destroyed his dowsing capabilities. From that day.. his rods never crossed or went apart. But he still beleives he was able to do it

Maybe I found a cure for the dowsers But the psychological effect was more negative then positive

basicaly i'm a guy like you....

I beleive there are other inteligent races in the universe.
I beleive that this world is a jigsaw glued together by smoke&mirrors.
The only paranormal thing is that as a human I'm realizing my own existence and that i'm a single separate entity.
I don't buy the official 911 story - doesn't mean I beleive in conspiracy theories.
And I beleive Edge is a poor self-deceived soul

sorry Edge... I had to

 

[BillyJoe]

basicaly i'm a guy like you....

I beleive there are other inteligent races in the universe.
I beleive that this world is a jigsaw glued together by smoke&mirrors.
The only paranormal thing is that as a human I'm realizing my own existence and that i'm a single separate entity.
I don't buy the official 911 story - doesn't mean I beleive in conspiracy theories.

If you can believe in that, edge can believe in dowsing.

 

[Tricky]

Ok you missed something; the target I am using exerts a force of a quarter pound.
With out it in that same location it exerts 3 ounces, the reason is this house sits on ground that's never been mined under.
That's because I'm in this part of the country.
My brother and I did some testing and used gold nuggets 2 of them, last night.
The difference is the scale doesn’t bottom out at 4 ounces but about three and a half, close enough.
If we add some more gold it will bottom out at 4 but how much?

None of this is relevant. If the presence of a target in any way changes the dowsing result, then you have an easy test. Can you detect that change of result when you don't know whether or not the target is there, that is the only thing you need to answer.

I need a bathroom scale that I will buy to see if I can make it quicker and easier with out restrictions to the stick. It will have to be digital and able to measure in tenths of a pound.
That is not a problem.

A bathroom scale? Are you suggesting standing on the scale while you dowse? If so, that is far to imprecise. You can change your weight on a scale simply by shifting positions. Have you ever seen someone leaning this way and that on a scale to get the lowest reading possible? It's easy to do.

 

[Paulhoff]

Yes, but his so-called beliefs have a foundation, edge's don't

Paul

 

[Patejdl]

Yes, but his so-called beliefs have a foundation, edge's don't

Paul

The most important foundation for my beleifs is simply statistics.

When we talk science and dowsing. Why the heck nobody ever used a micro-gyroscope (even nano scale gyroscopes were created) in the dowsing testing?? Sure the outcome wouldn't help much because dowsers would instanly find an "explanation". I've come with a simple way by image-processing motion capture to detect even the slightest 0,0001 angle rotation (the accuracy depends just on the zoom/macro abbilities of the camera) so why other skeptics with more access to technology already didn't debunk the whole - rod moves by itself BS ??? It's only in the rotation of palms and non of the dowsers would use squeezing or other movements with fingers to acheive rotation - such dowsers knew they were fake and such probably do not exist.

Explaining the palm rotation would push the things ahead a bit. Not much .. just a bit.

Then there's medicine. I inherited some certain ugly gifts from my mother and those were strong inclinations to psychosomatisation (asthma, leaky-gut-syndrome, IBS, Acid reflux, cfs, dysautonomia.. you name it) and when the problems struck me years back I was quite angry with medicine because it didn't taught people how to learn to reverse the psychosomatisation effects or redirect them. Ever wondered why you feel the stress in your stomach?? Psychosomatisation
Medicine and psychology flawed the research on this.. they know they exist but somehow if it doesn't involve pills and all the expensive medicine, it's not being under proper research.

So again explaining some psychological aspects of body/mind reactions would also come in handy in this scenario. Again it would only push it further. Not much but enough for even more people to jump the non-beleiver ship