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Dowsing by a Skeptic

IIRC, Edge did a test? Blamed his failure on interference from gilded book titles on the shelves? Before my time here.

Yes, he scored 100% when he could see the target. Then he failed utterly when the targets were hidden from view. At first he said he accepted the results, but then later he said interference from the gold in the gilt titles on some book titles threw him off. He said he wanted a re-test but refused to settle on any kind of intelligible protocol and never tested again. Oh, and the shiny gliding on the books contained not even one speck of gold.
 
Any dowsers here use a metal detector ?
G: Presumably you used two rods to locate it. If so, have you no trust in your findings ?
M: I found it with the rods. Why does that mean I have no trust in my findings ?
:rolleyes:

It's curious that SaskMick would bother to consult dowsers rather than the sciency skeptic guys at JREF for advice on metal detectors? It's going to have to be one humongous meteorite to find it with a metal detector at 3 feet.

Latest from BSoD:

Does anyone here think that...
Sun Jul 13, 2014 5:16 am
M: Does anyone here think that dowsing is a form of self hypnosis, or is it just me ?
PS, I will go further than saying I just think. I Know that dowsing is a form of self hypnosis.

G: Yes, Mick. I would go even further to say that we enter a different dimension when dowsing.

Re: Michael Cook (and Randi "Psychic Investigator" TV show)

Sat Jul 12, 2014 10:45 pm
M: Dowsing only seems to work for me when I am in a relaxed /carefree mood. I suspect that's why dowsers usually fail dismally under test conditions, ( when they really want to be able to show that it works ) Michael Cooks demonstration was the exception to the rule, I'm not 100% sure but I think I know how he did it.

Fascinating. I am becoming more and more convinced that it is unlikely that SaskMick could be trolling us or them.
 
Eh, the fertile world of Bollocksia. Where one may enter different dimensions just by virtue of handling a damaged coat hanger.
 
Yes, he scored 100% when he could see the target. Then he failed utterly when the targets were hidden from view. At first he said he accepted the results, but then later he said interference from the gold in the gilt titles on some book titles threw him off. He said he wanted a re-test but refused to settle on any kind of intelligible protocol and never tested again. Oh, and the shiny gliding on the books contained not even one speck of gold.
That's not quite true. I did an informal test of edge and he did quite well: 9 out of 10 hits. It's written up here somewhere.
 
Then you know all about the ideomotor effect, and how your subconscious mind can direct it. Have you done double-blinded tests to discount it?

Glad you made your way to this subforum, btw.


This is a long thread and I don't want to wade through it so I'll just ask this. Have you guys figured out yet that the subconscious mind actually USES the ideomotor effect to communicate information gained through unconscious psychic processes to the conscious mind of the dowser?

Or are you still stuck in thinking that the presence of the ideomotor effect supports your position?
 
That's not quite true. I did an informal test of edge and he did quite well: 9 out of 10 hits. It's written up here somewhere.

Sorry, I forgot that. However, though edge claimed he wanted to re-apply for a formal test, he never would come up with a workable protocol. I remember at one point after going on and on about finding clear ground for a formal test, and as people were making reasonable suggestions for double-blinding, he suddenly insisted that the targets had to be suspended in air, dangling from trees....
 
I think some dowsers believe that the rods themselves are crucial to the detection of a particular item, such as water or gold. They seem to believe that the material in the rod is attracted selectively to various things. I vaguely remember seeing adverts for various types of rods, copper, brass, steel, aluminum and even twisted copper wire rods which apparently were material specific for dowsers' searches.

Other dowsers appear to believe that the rods are just a tool, and it is the mind that somehow causes rod movement to indicate the location of the desired item. In this group, some accept the ideomotor effect as the mechanism for causing the movement, while others believe the mind magically moves the rods. The information which informs the mind to cause the movement directly or indirectly is believed alternately to be derived from god or yet unknown forces/senses possessed by humans. Some dowsers bristle at the idea that the information can be simply derived by the dowser's known senses, which is in fact the case, while others give an impression of possibly allowing for this likelihood but cannot tell you which sense would be responsible.

Most seem to be content with the broad notion of "information dowsing".

Though the sample set is small, this is my best understanding of the classes of dowsers. It doesn't seem to matter what you believe when among dowsers, just as long as you don't start asking to do any double blind trials, or question the validity of any claims of discovery. They really don't like skeptics. I can't decide whether dowsers are as a group afraid to know the truth, just because dowsing is so much fun, or whether they honestly think skeptics are at once evil, dangerous, damaging to their craft, and maliciously disbelieving for nefarious purposes...or perhaps some combination of these.

What is very likely going on is that dowsers are generally just not interested in nor appreciative of scientific explanations of natural phenomena. It's like learning boring facts for them, and they already know all they need to know, which to them feels like a scientific method of their own. Having special arcane knowledge and a desire to share it with others can be the norm in an academic setting, but it is also often one symptom of certain mental issues and of aging in general.

I think some people are members at BSoD just because they enjoy other people who don't need evidence for their beliefs and don't even have a real interest in dowsing. In some ways, it is reminiscent of the past lives forum we encountered years ago. There is a wide variety of woo over there at BSoD, including reincarnation.

This is a long thread and I don't want to wade through it so I'll just ask this. Have you guys figured out yet that the subconscious mind actually USES the ideomotor effect to communicate information gained through unconscious psychic processes to the conscious mind of the dowser?

Or are you still stuck in thinking that the presence of the ideomotor effect supports your position?

Some dowsers accept the ideomotor effect, while others consider it a fabrication by skeptics. Saskmick came here rejecting it, and now seems possibly to have grudgingly accepted the idea, but still he persists in believing his non natural senses detect things, as near as I can tell.

He was suspended for calling posters names, and now seems to not want to play with skeptics anymore.:(

I suspect if you read the thread you will find we are not "stuck" anywhere in our thinking. :rolleyes:
 
This is a long thread and I don't want to wade through it so I'll just ask this. Have you guys figured out yet that the subconscious mind actually USES the ideomotor effect to communicate information gained through unconscious psychic processes to the conscious mind of the dowser?

Or are you still stuck in thinking that the presence of the ideomotor effect supports your position?

Have you yet figured out that a claim can be make about anything at all?

The hard bit is coming up with the evidence to support the claim against competing or alternative claims.

You're linking apples and roofing tiles and coming up with the fuel pump on a 2009 BMW 135i N54 engine.
 
That's not quite true. I did an informal test of edge and he did quite well: 9 out of 10 hits. It's written up here somewhere.

That must have been before my time here. Any chance of finding that writeup?
 
Some dowsers accept the ideomotor effect, while others consider it a fabrication by skeptics. Saskmick came here rejecting it, and now seems possibly to have grudgingly accepted the idea, but still he persists in believing his non natural senses detect things, as near as I can tell.


Sure, unconscious psychic functions detect things all the time. We all do it. The unconscious simply uses the ideomotor effect as a way to get information across to the conscious mind.

He was suspended for calling posters names, and now seems to not want to play with skeptics anymore.:(


I know the feeling! You guys are like fundamentalists of a different color.

I suspect if you read the thread you will find we are not "stuck" anywhere in our thinking. :rolleyes:


I have my own thread going which has shown me that not much has changed around here, but thanks.
 
Sure, unconscious psychic functions detect things all the time. We all do it. The unconscious simply uses the ideomotor effect as a way to get information across to the conscious mind.
Well, some of us don't believe in psychic functions, since we have never been provided evidence of such.

My own interpretation of dowsing is that clues as to the location of water for instance are detected by the known senses and enter the subconscious much like first impressions of people we meet, or sensing danger but not understanding just why. The ideomotor effect then displays these subconscious thoughts derived from real world clues as approriate movement of rods, a Ouija device, a pendulum or whatever one chooses.

I know the feeling! You guys are like fundamentalists of a different color.
It must seem that way at times to some. Personally, I like the real world.

I have my own thread going which has shown me that not much has changed around here, but thanks.
Not sure I get that, since I have not checked out your thread. People still defend their beliefs and enjoy evidence of claims. Sure. Actually a lot has changed. Quite a few members banned, some my friends. The forum has had very slow days for months.
 
Well, some of us don't believe in psychic functions, since we have never been provided evidence of such.


Good ol' linear causality. So Newtonian.

Has it occured to you that, with acausality and/or retro-causality on the table, you haven't seen evidence (while others have) because you don't believe in psychic functioning?

No, of course not. The sheep-goat effect means nothing to skeptics.

"I have always seen parapsychology as the "earthing" of the spiritual. In our experiments we explore the psychic in a very logical, rational, exoteric manner. We assign clearly demonstrable proof ratings to the different variables. In such a manner we have inadvertently confirmed many spiritual teachings, for example that one's attitude or belief about something may actually affect the occurrence of that particular matter. Faith, it used to be called, although now it is "the sheep-goat effect," was said to be able to move mountains. Jesus spoke quite extensively on the incredible effect of faith, which has now become transmuted into attitude, and the Hindus have a spiritual path centered around faith called Bhakti Yoga. Our modern terms are more applicable to our present society, but underneath the change in terminology the concept lives on.

Another example of the "earthing of a religious concept" occurs when doing a ganzfeld or other free-response experiment. The first thing the participant is taught to do is to become aware of the content of their mind. This action is what the Christians call contemplation and the Buddhists call mindfulness, and it is the first step in meditation, the first step in learning how to develop one's mind. The state of consciousness that the ganzfeld induces is to be found in quite a number of different religions as well, albeit induced in radically different methods, such as getting up and chanting at 3 a.m. the point in common with all these methods is the aim to create a state of consciousness whereby the conscious mind is stopped, thus allowing one to access material from the collective unconscious."

-Serena Roney-Dougal
 
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Good ol' linear causality. So Newtonian.
The sheep-goat effect means nothing to skeptics.
It's an interesting meta-analysis. If there were anything to it, one would think they could gather up all the sheep they meta-studied, leave out the goats, and have a really bang-up team to score higher on some new psi tests. But they don't. Silly psi researchers.
 
Has it occured to you that, with acausality and/or retro-causality on the table, you haven't seen evidence (while others have) because you don't believe in psychic functioning?

So, I haven't seen evidence of psychic stuff because I don't believe in it? It's occurred to me, but not as serious notion.

This thread is about dowsing. Are you a dowser? How does a dowser find water in your opinion?
 
Good ol' linear causality. So Newtonian.

Has it occured to you that, with acausality and/or retro-causality on the table, you haven't seen evidence (while others have) because you don't believe in psychic functioning?


Only believers can see evidence of the things they believe in?

Go figure.



No, of course not. The sheep-goat effect means nothing to skeptics.


That's because it's nonsense, as are acausality and retro-causality.



"I have always seen parapsychology as the "earthing" of the spiritual. In our experiments we explore the psychic in a very logical, rational, exoteric manner. We assign clearly demonstrable proof ratings to the different variables. In such a manner we have inadvertently confirmed many spiritual teachings, for example that one's attitude or belief about something may actually affect the occurrence of that particular matter. Faith, it used to be called, although now it is "the sheep-goat effect," was said to be able to move mountains. Jesus spoke quite extensively on the incredible effect of faith, which has now become transmuted into attitude, and the Hindus have a spiritual path centered around faith called Bhakti Yoga. Our modern terms are more applicable to our present society, but underneath the change in terminology the concept lives on.

Another example of the "earthing of a religious concept" occurs when doing a ganzfeld or other free-response experiment. The first thing the participant is taught to do is to become aware of the content of their mind. This action is what the Christians call contemplation and the Buddhists call mindfulness, and it is the first step in meditation, the first step in learning how to develop one's mind. The state of consciousness that the ganzfeld induces is to be found in quite a number of different religions as well, albeit induced in radically different methods, such as getting up and chanting at 3 a.m. the point in common with all these methods is the aim to create a state of consciousness whereby the conscious mind is stopped, thus allowing one to access material from the collective unconscious."

-Serena Roney-Dougal


"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

- Philip K. Dick
 
So, I haven't seen evidence of psychic stuff because I don't believe in it? It's occurred to me, but not as serious notion.


I'm somewhat familar with the evidence for the sheep-goat effect, and I've seen firsthand how flimsy causality is. So I would recommend that you put that notion on the front burner.

This thread is about dowsing. Are you a dowser? How does a dowser find water in your opinion?


I have some experience dowsing. Pendulum dowsing is so easy a skeptic could do it. :p

A dowser find things subconsciously. Psychic functions are subconscious, just as the ideomotor effect is. The subconscious mind is strong enough to micro-manage the ideomotor effect. It does so in order to get the relevant information to the conscious mind of the dowser.

A dowser who has practiced meditation long enough wouldn't need the dowsing device to serve as a middle-man between the conscious and subconscious minds.
 
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A dowser who has practiced meditation long enough wouldn't need the dowsing device to serve as a middle-man between the conscious and subconscious minds.


When we get down to it, neither the meditation or the dowsing device are needed. Dowsers are unable to find stuff using either method.
 

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