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Dowsing by a Skeptic

I have some experience dowsing. Pendulum dowsing is so easy a skeptic could do it. :xtongue
Done it many times to find out who the good hypnotism subjects were. Also as a party trick under the guise of a lie detector.

I took an excellent course on pseudo-science a few years ago. The prof gave several demonstrations of all kinds of topics, but one really stuck with me.

In a class of 45 people, he had each of us write down H or T (heads/tails) in a random sequence as if we had flipped a coin 100 times.

He then asked, "How many of you had a sequence of 10 consecutive Head or Tails?" "How may had a sequence of 9....8...7...6...5....4....3 consecutive Heads or Tails?" He wrote the tallies on the white board.

The professor then had us do the same thing with a real penny, flipping it 100 times and recording the results. He actually let us keep the pennies! He then asked the same questions as above.

I will explain the results if anyone is interested. But I wonder if anyone can guess or intuit what might have happened? What was the noticeable difference between the two runs of 100: human simulated random, vs. real random events. Hint, the principles involved are actually used by law enforcement and have resulted in convictions, or so I'm told.
 
Why do psychic functions disappear the moment the dowser cannot be aware of the location of the object? The Chevreul pendulum was a good example. Monsieur Chevreul was a true skeptic and scientist in that he took a phenomenon that he did not understand and figured it out using the scientific method.

His pendulum appeared to swing in response to a pool of mercury, and when he placed a paper card over the pool, the swinging stopped. He deduced that somehow the pendulum could sense the mercury but this sense could be blocked with a sheet of paper. A fair deduction, but one that merits further investigation.

He then had his assistant remove or insert the paper at random, while Chevreul was blindfolded. The effect of the paper totally disappeared.
 
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If only we could replace the billions we spend each year on seismic and geologists and engineers with hiring some rube holding a pendulum over a map or wandering about with bent coat hangers.

If dowsing ever worked we could.

I wonder why no one has ever thought of this before?
 
I'm somewhat familar with the evidence for the sheep-goat effect, and I've seen firsthand how flimsy causality is. So I would recommend that you put that notion on the front burner.




I have some experience dowsing. Pendulum dowsing is so easy a skeptic could do it. :p

A dowser find things subconsciously. Psychic functions are subconscious, just as the ideomotor effect is. The subconscious mind is strong enough to micro-manage the ideomotor effect. It does so in order to get the relevant information to the conscious mind of the dowser.

A dowser who has practiced meditation long enough wouldn't need the dowsing device to serve as a middle-man between the conscious and subconscious minds.

So, are you telling us, Grasshopper, that you've achieved this level of practiced meditation? That you can walk through a cornfield in Saskatchewan and find the missing mobile phone? With no coat hangers or magic twigs? I'd think this would be rather easy to test.

Since SaskMick doesn't seem to want to try a double-blind test, perhaps you would like to step in? I mean, if you're not too busy solving world hunger and ending war and stuff.
 
Why do psychic functions disappear the moment the dowser cannot be aware of the location of the object. The Chevreul pendulum was a good example. Monsieur Chevreul was a true skeptic and scientist in that he took a phenomenon that he did not understand and figured it out using the scientific method.


I think you're asking why is the paranormal in general so elusive. The scientific method just isn't up to the task, because scientists have an unconscious mind. Before science can take on the paranormal, scientists have to take on their unconscious minds.

Do you have ANY idea what lurks in the unconscious mind?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Trickster-Paranormal-George-Hansen/dp/1401000827

"Myths are public dreams, dreams are private myths" -Joseph Campbell

Vladimir Propp, literary theorist, thought that Russian folktales could be seen as variations of a few underlying plot elements. Generally, a preliminary situation is followed by "misfortune or lack" and then by a sequence of events that repairs what misfortune or lack disturbed. The trickster figure mischief-maker and thief is one of the prime movers of the narrative. He gets the story moving and it comes to an end when he and his mischief have been dealt with.

There are only a few ways to deal with the trickster. A limited number of plots. From the threshold there are only a few ways the trickster can move. He can come inside, he can leave entirely, or he can stay exactly where he started, resisting all attempts to civilize or exile. From the tricksters point of view, staying on the threshold is the ideal. It gives us the plot that never resolves, the endlessly strung-together Coyote tales each linked to each with the phrase "Coyote was going along..."

Awakened consciousness is the potential end of the narrative, without it the tale can go on and on, another night, another season... another unconscious projection of the trickster archetype that we can't withdraw and can't exile.

"The so-called civilized man has forgotten the trickster. He remembers him only figuratively and metaphorically, when, irritated by his own ineptitude, he speaks of fate playing tricks on him or of things being bewitched. He never suspects that his own hidden and apparently harmless shadow has qualities whose dangerousness exceeds his wildest dreams." -Carl Jung

The trickster figure is more than a mere story, more than a mere metaphor. It's an archetype of the collective unconscious. It's part of us, and our minds project it "out there" in symbolic, poetic, cryptic, semi-autonomous thought-forms that change from culture to culture, age to age, person to person, religion to religion.

We are all psychic, and we are mostly ignorant of that fact. But our ignorance of that fact doesn't mean that our minds don't utilize that ability unconsciously. People who don't believe in psychic ability are still using it, unconsciously, even to protect their disbelief. It's called the sheep-goat effect. It was discovered by Gertrude Schmeidler.

"The data convinced me. Repeatedly, average ESP scores of subjects who rejected any possibility of ESP success (whom I called goats) were lower than average ESP scores of all other subjects (whom I called sheep). This was inexplicable by the physical laws we knew; it implied unexplored processes in the universe, an exciting new field for research. From then on, naturally, my primary research interest was parapsychology." -Gertrude Schmeidler

"Goats", or test subjects who don't believe in psychic ability, unconsciously use their hidden psychic ability to suppress evidence that contradicts their conscious belief-system resulting in low scores.

"Sheep" are test subjects who believe in psychic ability and so they have nothing to fear from high scores. So their psychic ability comes forth to conscious awareness much easier.

"The sheep thought they could do it, they got "good" scores, they were happy. The goats knew there was no ESP, nothing to get, they got poor scores, they were happy, that "proved" their belief. These were not people who were sophisticated enough about statistics to know that scoring below chance could be significant…

Many other experimenters replicated this effect over the years.

The only way I've ever been able to understand it is to think that the goats occasionally used ESP, but on an unconscious level, to know what the next card was and then their unconscious, acting in the service of their conscious belief system, influenced them to call anything but the correct one." -Charles Tart
 
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Why doesn't the "Sheep/Goat effect" work for other sciences than parapsychology? Why is the trajectory of the supply ship to the ISS not subject to good or bad thoughts by the astronauts waiting for the life-giving supplies? Couldn't some evil mind throw the ship off course? Do you think that the navigation system designers took this possibility into consideration? How would they have prevented it?

How about the Mars landers?
 
I think you're asking why is the paranormal in general so elusive. The scientific method just isn't up to the task, because scientists have an unconscious mind.
What if it is just a dude off the street, not a scientist, playing hide the bunny? Could you dowse a bunny hidden by a non-scientist then blindfolded? Or is this unconscious an impediment as well? What good is this talent if you can't prove it?

And by the way, "scientific method" is just repeated experimentation and eliminating as much noise as possible in the results. Nothing complicated. You need not be a scientist to do science. Kind of like talking, we all speak in prose.

What about the random coin toss experiment? Any takers?
 
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Can anyone point me at respectable journal articles on reproducing (or failing to do so) the Sheep-goat Effect? I am interested in what sort of controls were used. The controls attributed to the original experiment come up a bit short.
 
What if it is just a dude off the street, not a scientist, playing hide the bunny? Could you dowse a bunny hidden by a non-scientist then blindfolded? Or is this unconscious an impediment as well? What good is this talent if you can't prove it?

And by the way, "scientific method" is just repeated experimentation and eliminating as much noise as possible in the results. Nothing complicated. You need not be a scientist to do science. Kind of like talking, we all speak in prose.

What about the random coin toss experiment? Any takers?

Here! I want to hear the rest of the story.
 
I'm guessing that the human generated sequences were more "random" than the coin generated sequences.

I think you are right...the human-generated sequences would have fewer long runs of T or H than the actual coin tosses (unless some evil old skeptic was messing with them).
 
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This is a long thread and I don't want to wade through it so I'll just ask this. Have you guys figured out yet that the subconscious mind actually USES the ideomotor effect to communicate information gained through unconscious psychic processes to the conscious mind of the dowser?

Or are you still stuck in thinking that the presence of the ideomotor effect supports your position?
I agree that the dowser's unconscious mind uses the ideomotor effect to communicate information to their conscious mind, but if the information had a paranormal origin they would get the same success rate in the blinded test as they do in the unblinded one. The dowser's unconscious mind simply makes the best guess it can based on the information available to our normal senses; when it has no such information it guesses randomly.
 
This is a long thread and I don't want to wade through it so I'll just ask this. Have you guys figured out yet that the subconscious mind actually USES the ideomotor effect to communicate information gained through unconscious psychic processes to the conscious mind of the dowser?


The problem with this suggestion is that when non-psychic means of gaining the information are eliminated, so is the ability to dowse.
 
What about the random coin toss experiment? Any takers?

Me too!

My intuition is that I'd try to break any patterns in order to be random. However, knowing myself to have a perverse impulse, I'd also include some repeats and patterns, just to break the break.

Tis a mess?
 
The problem with this suggestion is that when non-psychic means of gaining the information are eliminated, so is the ability to dowse.


I'm sure that's the case, sometimes. Take a dowser out of their usual methodology and environment, and you introduce psychological changes. You change their attitude, and introduce uncertainty. Many variables can and do influence psychic ability. Environmental, psychological, physiological. Change a few, and you screw up the flow of information.

Dangle a million dollars in front of their nose and you really screw up their psychology.

It's a very clever scam you guys got going.
 
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Scammier than astral projecting to the dark side of the moon?


Since astral projection is like a telecope that you could chose to look through yourself, I would say yes. But hey, we can't blame people for being too scared to look through Galileo's telescope, can we?
 
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I'm sure that's the case, sometimes. Take a dowser out of their usual methodology and environment, and you introduce psychological changes. You change their attitude, and introduce uncertainty. Many variables can and do influence psychic ability. Environmental, psychological, physiological. Change a few, and you screw up the flow of information.

Dangle a million dollars in front of their nose and you really screw up their psychology.

It's a very clever scam you guys got going.

They are just as much "out of their usual methodology and environment" when they do the open test immediately before doing the blinded one, yet it doesn't seem to bother them then.

And it's not "sometimes"; it's every single time. 100% success in the open test, no better than chance in the blinded one.
 
Limbo, You don't half talk a lot of waffle. What with your assertions of 'universal consiousness' etc, suggest you would be better off wasting your time with the Deepak Chopra mob, than coming here and wasting our time.

As a blow to your bs about testing conditions messing up 'psychic' and supernatural powers, suggest you look back at the famous case of Mr Geller who was stymied by Randi on the Tonight show. On other well documented occasions when there was no skeptical input to his show, he has been caught on camera cheating.

In the end, if you are going to suggest that testing makes phenomena run away to hide, there is simply no point engaging as the vast majority here will simply not buy that oh so easy get out of jail free card.
 

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