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Dowsing by a Skeptic

Instead of spray painting one of the buckets and switching them around, Mick's wife should have rolled a die to choose which bucket to put the can of spray paint underneath.
Something large and opaque like that could potentially be detectable by mundane means. I think a single coin under one of a number of identical opaque buckets, cups, or bowls would be sufficient, with appropriate blinding.
 
Sasmick' allow me to suggest spray painting a piece of cardboard, allow to dry, have someone hide it under one of the buckets, under the others would be non spray painted cardboard.

Still leaves other issues however.
 
Actually, it's an incredibly bad test. (snip) Is SaskMick's painted bucket different in some way from the other 'identical' buckets? You betcha! So...not all that good a test after all.

All true... but it's better than dowsing the location of an immovable object that SaskMick already knew about, so I'm optimistically considering it progress.
 
...
I have come to the conclusion that there are "dowsers" who are full of it. It's a pity, but there are shysters everywhere.

,,,

There have been several committed dowsers who have passed through the forum here at JREF. None of these people struck me as "shysters" as you put it. They were very sincere, as are you, in their claims. I am pretty sure those at BSD are also sincere.

A shyster is a person who uses unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business. Dowsers are generally not being fraudulent, rather very probably just misinformed. Like yourself, they genuinely believe that they have special abilities, and they are willfully blind to any refutation of their special powers that can be provided by experiment.

Sometimes the belief in dowsing resembles a sort of addictive behavior, such as compulsive gambling, pursuit of psychics or a religious obsession rooted in a faith based belief. Followers seem to all have an uncanny ability to ignore arguments which most people would find compelling, or at the least, interesting and worth considering.

Even in the face of total failure, dowsers commonly retain their belief that there must be forces beyond their control that are blocking these powers. This staunch trust in confirmation bias is also typical of believers in homeopathy and Ouija boards.

This is one of the best videos that I have found to demonstrate how dowsers think and their reactions to proven failures. A double blind test of many dowsers whose confidence is not shaken by repeated failures. They are obviously sincere, but unwilling to face the real world. Frankly, there is somewhat of a lesson here to be learned by all of us. It is worth watching. Below is Dawkins' comment on the noteworthy persistence of the beliefs of failed dowsers.

Richard Dawkins: "This state of denial is extraordinary. Even when confronted with hard fact, these dowsers prefer not to face up to truth, but retain their delusion."
 
SaskMick, in case you misseed my question, I'll repeat it:

Once you have proven to yourself that you can dowse, what do you intend to do with this ability?
 
I just thought I should explain to SaskMick the rationale for the different parts of the tests that we have proposed to make it clear that we aren't just being resistant to his "proofs":

1. You need completely opaque containers that always look identical on the outside and give no external indication of what is inside and are not permanently linked to what is inside (this is one problem with using a painted interior in your test). Even subtle clues as to the contents need to be eliminated and nothing on the outside, even small imperfections, can tell you what is inside.

2. You need some objects that can be placed inside the containers without altering the container's outside properties and appearance in any way. Again, this is so even subtle clues on the outside are eliminated (smells, looks, stability, etc.). Ideally, the inside objects should not even touch the containers themselves.

3. To be extra safe, you need control objects about the same shape, color, and weight as the target so every container has a target or control object. I like coins, because they are very low heights, do not smell, can be of similar weights and colors, and similar sized coins look much alike so that there is no clue communicated to the outside. If American and Canadian pennies are hard to come by, try British currency instead. Again, the shape, weight, color, and thickness of the target and control coins should be much the same. One problem: currency is usually designed to feel and look different to avoid confusion, so you may need to use a foreign coin to approximate a British one. One established "magic" trick is to use film cans as the container and only fill one with water. Notably, just rocking the containers a little bit, by leaning on the table, will result in the one with water rocking much differently than those without. That is say all of the containers need controls inside that are very close to the properties of the target. You can even use paper currency (a 5 vs 10 pound note) and envelopes instead of buckets if the envelopes are completely opaque. Or use paper currency in envelopes in the buckets to be extra safe.

4. The person who sets up the target vs. controls should use a random means of selecting their locations (a dice toss, a random number, etc.). This is because people are known to choose numbers non-randomly if they are allowed to.

5. The person who sets up the target vs. the controls must leave the room during the test, and no one in the test room should know which is the target vs, controls location. This is to remove subconscious clues from the "people in the know" to the testee (catches of breadth, stares, subtle body language). In fact, even horses can be shown to pick up on these clues. Spouses are particularly good at picking up on these non-verbal clues.

6. Obviously you should be well out of visual and auditory range during the set up of the test. You may not know that you are using subtle information from the setup of the tests, but people do indeed.
 
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Just to add as to how people can pick up on subtle clues if they let themselves: Someone, (I think Richard Feynman?) discovered that they could easily distinguish a freshly handled coin from an untouched one by the human scent left on the handled coin. This requires close and careful sniffing, but was repeatedly reproduced. I tried this myself, and found it was true: the human odor was subtle and hard to characterize, but it was there. This should not be a problem in your test if you keep your nose away from the target, but the controls should be handled in the same way just to be safe.
 
The most interesting bit of this post is at the very end, where you can watch SaskMick's video of him dowsing. I can't watch it on the device I'm posting from, but I'm sure it's interesting somehow.



That seems potentially consistent, really. It helps Mick is happy to give the 'other' forum plenty of details.
  • Many years ago: SaskMick first learns about dowsing, tries to dowse with no success (link)
  • Last Autumn (northern hemisphere): Mick buys the acreage with existing structure; shortly after, it burns down (link)
  • Mid-May: 'Day Zero'. Mick gets a plumber to visit for 'an estimate'. Mick takes the plumber to the well, the plumber looks at/in the well, and then uses his dowsing rods. The plumber claims the well is a good source with plenty of water. Mick asks to try and gets an instant result matching the plumber's. Mick discovers he can ask questions out loud to get answers from the rods. Mick asks the plumber about his rods, who lies and claims they are a special material (in fact, coat hanger wire) apparently out of annoyance at Mick's success. (previous link)
  • Mid-May: Mick investigates with his own coat hanger wire rods, successfully dowsing previously-marked gas and phone lines on the property. Mick repeats several times with some failures. Mick does experiments with his wife, who is unable to dowse. One experiment involves Mick holding the rods while his wife walks near three sources of water that Mick knows about; the rods respond when his wife reaches them. Mick does other tests that would be interesting if he had done them with more rigor and achieved the same results. Mick continues to experiment with 'surrogate dowsing' (dowsing based on someone else's position), at first with them holding a pendulum, but later deciding the pendulum is unnecessary. (previous link)
  • May 28: Mick joins the British Society of Dowsers forum.
  • May 29: Mick discovers one rod works as well as two rods.
  • May 31: "I'm now fairly sure it's the dowser that subconsciously makes the rods move". (link)
  • Very early June: Mick meets another dowser, and discovers dowsing has medical applications (Possibly the friend of the doctor) (link)
  • Very early June: Mick dowses another property for a well, and discovers the woman living there can dowse. Her husband later forbids Mick from contacting her about dowsing, and maybe contacting them at all. (see last link)
  • June 5: Another forum poster links to a youtube video of Randi on dowsing, to which Mick replies "I have seen that Randi video before. I would like to stick my dowsing rods right up his arse." (link)
  • June 8: Mick gets a (phone?) call from the president of the Holistic Intuition Society about using his youtube video* on their website, and a possible job dowsing underground for other clients (link)
  • June 10: Mick asks the BSD forum about the ideomotor effect, and is happy with their explanation of why dowsing still works regardless. Later in the thread (June 15), in an example of bad faith, Mick states "PS, I just needed it to rub someones nose in it a the JREF forum. You should check out that forum, it's great fun." (link)
    [*]No later than June 11: Mick joins the JREF forum, and then makes this thread.
  • June 14: Mick discovers another person (male this time) who can dowse as well as him. (link)
  • Before June 20: Mick discovers he can dowse better when moving than when stationary.

*Despite having enough posts to do so, Mick has not posted his video here (as far as I'm aware). However, he planned to earlier - "( I need 15 posts before I can post a video link )" - so I'm sure he won't mind if I do:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kocsJpsgl-A

Just a minor nitpick. I tried to Hilite your entry for "no later than June 11", but hiliting doesn't work on "lists" in this software.

By the time of his posts here, the first one was June 10, his time (June 11, mine). The time stamps on the UK forum are probably UT, so the June 10/11 entries should probably be reversed. It seems to me he joined here and started discussing dowsing the same day, and likely then went over to "safe harbour" to get debunking-the-debunkers arguments.
 
Just a minor nitpick. I tried to Hilite your entry for "no later than June 11", but hiliting doesn't work on "lists" in this software.

By the time of his posts here, the first one was June 10, his time (June 11, mine). The time stamps on the UK forum are probably UT, so the June 10/11 entries should probably be reversed. It seems to me he joined here and started discussing dowsing the same day, and likely then went over to "safe harbour" to get debunking-the-debunkers arguments.

Huh, that never occurred to me, but you're right. I'm about ten hours ahead of the UK, but of course I've changed my timezone on this forum. And it would make more sense. Oh well, it's not like that timeline's going to be cited or published.
 
Huh, that never occurred to me, but you're right. I'm about ten hours ahead of the UK, but of course I've changed my timezone on this forum. And it would make more sense. Oh well, it's not like that timeline's going to be cited or published.

Oh, other than that quibble, I think it's an excellent tool. These threads sometimes run amok. We had the "spirits in the computer" lady all over the place, plus she was a horrible communicator so figuring out what was claimed when,... and what period it refers to... is very important.

I found it interesting that Mick joined the Delusional Limey Forums before coming here. Mick, did you make the common "believer" mistake and see folks "discussing ... the paranormal and science in a friendly and lively way" and think this was another cozy group of sycophants? It's not uncommon, as I said. We've had people announce their paranormal abilities in The Welcome Thread, expecting everyone to go, "Wow! Welcome. We haven't got an Airbender on the forums yet. Tell us all about it!"
 
Pearls before divine.




(I hope Mick returns and proves me wrong!)

Isn't he meant to be here rubbing someone's nose in something or other?


Micky, what are you going to do with your dowsing ability?
 
Originally Posted by uvar
The most interesting bit of this post is at the very end, where you can watch SaskMick's video of him dowsing. I can't watch it on the device I'm posting from, but I'm sure it's interesting somehow.
OK. Someone had to say it.:rolleyes: How shall I phrase this in order not to get yellow carded?


The video is pathetic puerile poppycock, pure nonsense by someone who really should know better. Saskmick is having some fun with his nemeses--the skeptics. The last time someone tried this tactic, he wound up getting banned from his reincarnation forum and persona non grata at JREF.

This post is what dowsers should be focusing on in order to understand how to either prove or disprove their claims:

I just thought I should explain to SaskMick the rationale for the different parts of the tests that we have proposed to make it clear that we aren't just being resistant to his "proofs":

1. You need completely opaque containers that always look identical on the outside and give no external indication of what is inside and are not permanently linked to what is inside (this is one problem with using a painted interior in your test). Even subtle clues as to the contents need to be eliminated and nothing on the outside, even small imperfections, can tell you what is inside.

2. You need some objects that can be placed inside the containers without altering the container's outside properties and appearance in any way. Again, this is so even subtle clues on the outside are eliminated (smells, looks, stability, etc.). Ideally, the inside objects should not even touch the containers themselves.

3. To be extra safe, you need control objects about the same shape, color, and weight as the target so every container has a target or control object. I like coins, because they are very low heights, do not smell, can be of similar weights and colors, and similar sized coins look much alike so that there is no clue communicated to the outside. If American and Canadian pennies are hard to come by, try British currency instead. Again, the shape, weight, color, and thickness of the target and control coins should be much the same. One problem: currency is usually designed to feel and look different to avoid confusion, so you may need to use a foreign coin to approximate a British one. One established "magic" trick is to use film cans as the container and only fill one with water. Notably, just rocking the containers a little bit, by leaning on the table, will result in the one with water rocking much differently than those without. That is say all of the containers need controls inside that are very close to the properties of the target. You can even use paper currency (a 5 vs 10 pound note) and envelopes instead of buckets if the envelopes are completely opaque. Or use paper currency in envelopes in the buckets to be extra safe.

4. The person who sets up the target vs. controls should use a random means of selecting their locations (a dice toss, a random number, etc.). This is because people are known to choose numbers non-randomly if they are allowed to.

5. The person who sets up the target vs. the controls must leave the room during the test, and no one in the test room should know which is the target vs, controls location. This is to remove subconscious clues from the "people in the know" to the testee (catches of breadth, stares, subtle body language). In fact, even horses can be shown to pick up on these clues. Spouses are particularly good at picking up on these non-verbal clues.

6. Obviously you should be well out of visual and auditory range during the set up of the test. You may not know that you are using subtle information from the setup of the tests, but people do indeed.
 
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The buckets are all identical black ( non see through ) five gallon buckets.

I sprayed the inside of one and placed it upside down amongst the others when my wife was not present. My wife later put one bucket over the other while I got my rods from the truck, and placed them at about 30 feet apart in a line. I did not know which bucket had been marked inside and neither did my wife. I dowsed from about 50-60 feet away from the buckets on different days. I have asked if it was OK to do it again since but have been told no. I will ask again later.

All that mattered to me was that neither myself or my wife knew which bucket was marked, that is why I did not get my wife to place something underneath one of the buckets.

The test was for my benefit alone. I could not be happier:D
 
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... I have asked if it was OK do do it again since but have been told no. I will ask again later.
...
I could not be happier:D

Right, so you having a conversation with your rods makes you happy?
That doesn't sound exactly very good.
 
The buckets are all identical black ( non see through ) five gallon buckets.

I sprayed the inside of one and placed it upside down amongst the others when my wife was not present. My wife later put one bucket over the other while I got my rods from the truck, and placed them at about 30 feet apart in a line. I did not know which bucket had been marked inside and neither did my wife. I dowsed from about 50-60 feet away from the buckets on different days. I have asked if it was OK to do it again since but have been told no. I will ask again later.

All that mattered to me was that neither myself or my wife knew which bucket was marked, that is why I did not get my wife to place something underneath one of the buckets.

The test was for my benefit alone. I could not be happier:D

The rods said no after the 4 times you did the experiment as you told us in a prior post?

In any case, please do the experiment the way we mentioned for the reasons mentioned. Thanks.
 
I sprayed the inside of one and placed it upside down amongst the others when my wife was not present.


I've highlighted the part where you memorized the tiny differences between buckets so you'd be able to pick out the right one later.

All of your tests are just bad enough to let you win. Don't you really want to know your abilities?
 

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