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Dowsing by a Skeptic

SaskMick - You're aware of the ideomotor effect. Why do you feel this does not explain the phenomena you are describing?

Further, you claim to be mystified by it, yet you have narrowed the cause of the effect to you through at least a thought process (ie it's not related to the metal / special metal). Now how do you eliminate other factors as well?
 
You come back to the thread and refuse to stay on topic. Don't you realize you're not following the forum rules? You started this thread with claims about your dowsing abilities. Stick to that.


I somehow get the feeling that you will never be happy, no matter what.
 
I somehow get the feeling that you will never be happy, no matter what.


You won't believe it, but I would be very happy if someone proves that dowsing, or any other supernatural claim, is real. That would be a great mystery to examine further. It would challenge many current ideas in physics.

Are you going to do it? I suspect not.

And, you're still off-topic.
 
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You are right in that I am indeed sincere. You are wrong that I can't detect anything unless I already know it's there.
Can you detect something you don't know is there more often than would be expected by chance, under conditions where all possible clues have been rigorously excluded?

Until you have conducted a test that fits this description and can compare your success rate to chance you do not know whether or not dowsing works,
 
SaskMick - You're aware of the ideomotor effect. Why do you feel this does not explain the phenomena you are describing?

Because I can find things in places where I am told they are not located and I do not expect them to be. Can I offer proof that would satisfy AdMan ? I very much doubt it. But I'm not full of ****.

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Edited to properly mask profanity. Please see Rule 10.


Further, you claim to be mystified by it, yet you have narrowed the cause of the effect to you through at least a thought process (ie it's not related to the metal / special metal). Now how do you eliminate other factors as well?

There is a factor that I can't figure out, and that's what's bothers me. If someone here could show me that I was crazy I could accept that, and would be able to get a good nights sleep.
 
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Because I can find things in places where I am told they are not located and I do not expect them to be. Can I offer proof that would satisfy AdMan ? I very much doubt it. But I'm not full of ****.

That's interesting. I would like to know more. Especially if you're able to document it in a video form.

There is a factor that I can't figure out, and that's what's bothers me. If someone here could show me that I was crazy I could accept that, and would be able to get a good nights sleep.
I don't think it has anything to do with being crazy. As others have pointed out: the ideomotor effect is extremely convincing. So much so that- when put under scientific testing- dowsers still can't believe that they are doing it themselves.

Perhaps that's why it may be beneficial for you to consider the mechanism: how do you think it works? You said it was you and not the rods. Do you think it's an extra sense that only you posses? And it would have to be just you, because while others have made this claim, they have also found to be false over and over again.

Here's Randi discussing one such case:
 
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Because I can find things in places where I am told they are not located and I do not expect them to be. Can I offer proof that would satisfy AdMan ? I very much doubt it. But I'm not full of ****.


Succeed in proper, double-blinded experiments, and you will convince me. That is what the scientific method is about. Empty claims and silly YouTube videos are not that.
 
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Because I can find things in places where I am told they are not located and I do not expect them to be. Can I offer proof that would satisfy AdMan ? I very much doubt it.
I've been reading his posts for years and I'm quite sure you could. Just do a simple blind test. Assuming, of course, that when you do so you do indeed get a result better than chance, unlike every single equally convinced dowser in history.
 
SaskMick,

On the first page of this thread, Pixel42 suggested that you visit this other thread about dowsing: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?t=226770

I reiterate her suggestion for a couple of reasons. First, while dowsing might be new to you, many posters here have been down this road before and that thread is a good example. Some posters think "This again?" and others, as on any forum, will never be happy with anything.

You have a wife. She could easily hide items under boxes in your living room or garden (when you are not around). Then she leaves and you show up and dowse. The trick is to not allow yourself to cheat and to keep meticulous records of how often you succeed and how often you fail. This protocol can and should be much more detailed to confirm that your results come from the power of dowsing alone, rather than environmental clues. But it's a start.

Keep us updated,
Ward

P.S. Canada's a big place, but I think the IIG (www.iighq.org) has an affiliate in Edmunton. They offer a US$100,000 prize silmilar to Randi's million.
 
I ended up here as I could not find the answers I was looking for elsewhere, and I have not yet found them here either:( Still, I feel far more at home here than the Hippie type forums I have visited:)



I am English by birth, and now proudly Canadian.

There is a big difference between an English accent and an Irish one. Can you really not tell the difference ?

You are looking for predetermined answers which agree that you can, in fact, dowse. You have been given answers here but they do not fit what you are looking for.

Speaking of the Irish, a friend of mine is Irish but he speaks with an (ie one of the many) English accent.
 
Can you detect something you don't know is there more often than would be expected by chance, under conditions where all possible clues have been rigorously excluded?

Until you have conducted a test that fits this description and can compare your success rate to chance you do not know whether or not dowsing works,

I have not been dowsing long enough to have built a detailed record, but I know that can find things where possible clues are excluded.

Example... I was at the home of some people who live just a few miles from the acreage I have recently bought, They asked me if I had a well, I told them I did. They told me that they were not happy with their piped water supply as it came from a river, and whenever it rained all the pesticides etc ended up in their water.
I asked them if they had considered having a survey done to see if they could drill a well on their property. They said that it would probably cost a lot and would not know how to go about it. I told them it would cost nothing and that I could do it straight away ! I got my rods from the truck.

I walked into their yard with them at my side. I stopped and asked out loud if there was water there, the rods indicated a very positive yes. I said out loud. Ok then show us where it is, the rods swung to my left and pointed the way, We walked about 50 yards and the rods indicated water.
I could see they were both skeptical, so I asked the man if he would like to try for himself, and he did but without any result. I then asked the woman, she walked towards the source I had just found and the rods crossed in her hands, I then told her to walk forward and they opened up. She had the biggest smile imaginable :). I then told her to ask the rods ton show her a yes, and they moved together albeit slightly. I then said ask it to show you a no, they moved apart.

I was over the moon, I had just found someone who could dowse that lived just down the road, not only that but someone who could communicate with what ever it is !

The man asked if I could find anything else other than water. I told him I could find anything. I could see he was still was doubt full. He asked if I could find his gas line I said lets see, and walked towards his house. ( where I knew I would find the gas line :D ). I found it, and showed him where it ran along the side of his drive. I asked if he knew where the water line was and he told me it ran parallel to the gas line about two feet further away. I checked with the rods and was surprised when I got no water indication. I told him there is no water line here and he still claimed that there was.

I asked the rods out loud to show me the water line and they pointed in the opposite direction to what he had indicated. I found the water line. It then occurred to me that I was being tested, and asked him if that was the case. He begrudgingly admitted it was.

I have since tried to speak with both of them but they do not want anything more to do with me. I think the woman is fine, but her husband is scared.

It's a bit awkward for my wife as the woman works at the same hospital as her.
 
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Because the range of possible explanations is actually very small.
(We might be getting into derail territory - maybe we need a new thread "Does Quantum Field Theory disprove all woo?")

Even limiting ourselves to just the forces we already know, no one can predict all the interesting ways that they can be combined into complex mechanical, biological, or chemical systems (for example). As the QFT lecturer said, we aren't done. Maybe a mind-reader reads your mind by sending out microscopic flying worms that burrow into your head and transmit the results back using radio waves. Or they just fly back with sampled results. It is an extraordinary ability and only happens every billion or so births. Nothing there violates QFT. QFT can't prove that it won't work, because the mechanism is consistent with QFT. Once we get our hands on a psychic, we can test it and rule out the flying worms, or maybe verify them. But QFT does not preclude it.

This is all I am saying: QFT doesn't rule out flying worms! Also, I do not believe in flying worms.
 
I have not been dowsing long enough to have built a detailed record, but I know that can find things where possible clues are excluded.

Example... <snip>


This is not evidence of anything. These are not scientific tests, but anecdotes, stories. We only have your word, and your possibly fallible memories, to believe they occurred as you say they did.

Do you understand what the scientific method is? That would be a starting point.

On a positive note, now you are on topic.
 
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These sort of anecdotes are exactly what has convinced other people that they can dowse. Yet none have ever done better than chance in a carefully blinded test.

We all have built in cognitive biases that can fool us into believing all sorts of things that aren't true. The only way to find out what is true is to carefully and methodically exclude those biases. It's easy enough to do. Until you have at least tried such a test you have no objective basis for your claim that dowsing works. The longer you continue to post anecdotes without doing such a test the more annoyed the experienced posters here are going to get with you. Just do a simple blind test. Do it this weekend.
 
This is not evidence of anything. These are not scientific tests, but anecdotes, stories. We only have your word to believe they occurred as you say they did.

You can believe whatever you like.

Do you understand what the scientific method is? That would be a starting point.

On a positive note, now you are on topic.

FFS AdMan, I am only just beginning to experiment with dowsing, I am far from the stage of scientifically trying to prove anything. Gimme a bleedin chance for christs sake.
 
For the record: I have no difficulty believing your anecdotes. Pipelines are not laid at random, when you hand over control of the rods to your unconscious mind it will make the best guess it can and, thanks to common sense plus visual clues of which you may not even be consciously aware, it will often guess correctly. This does not mean that dowsing works.
 
FFS AdMan, I am only just beginning to experiment with dowsing, I am far from the stage of scientifically trying to prove anything. Gimme a bleedin chance for christs sake.


If you need help from the forum members in developing ways to test if your dowsing is real, ask for it. You'll get that help.

But you came to the forum claiming you could dowse. You should not be surprised if you find that claim challenged.
 
I am only just beginning to experiment with dowsing, I am far from the stage of scientifically trying to prove anything.
Yet you have apparently already reached the conclusion that dowsing works. That conclusion is not justified. That's all we're saying.
 
Um, you found a spot that you claimed was a good place to dig for a well. The woman then walked over the same spot and agreed with you.

Did anyone ever think to find out if it actually was a decent place for a well?

Finding gas and water lines near a house where there are any number of clues as to their location is trivial. Try one of the more stringent tests, and if those results are equally positive, I will agree that there may be something to it.
 
For the record: I have no difficulty believing your anecdotes. Pipelines are not laid at random,

Great.


when you hand over control of the rods to your unconscious mind it will make the best guess it can and, thanks to common sense plus visual clues of which you may not even be consciously aware, it will often guess correctly. This does not mean that dowsing works.

I think you are getting warmer, I'm sure the subconscious mind has much to do with it.

I have demonstrated it to a few people including the telephone guy who was locating the underground lines at my new place. I had already marked the line where I thought it ran. He put his marker flags almost directly on the marks I made previously.

I have noticed that some people go quiet, as did the telephone engineer, so to break the ice so to speak I have found a bit of humor often helps. I ask who is the best looking guy here, and the rods will swing round and point to me. I then say show me the ugly git and they will point to ever I have decided the victim will be.

If there are women present I will say who is the hot chick that wants me too much:D

The point I'm making is that the rods will point to what ever I'm thinking of, whether it's hidden or not
 

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