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Dowsing by a Skeptic

Dowsers never seem to want to acknowledge that they will be given a chance to dowse un-blinded to insure that they are comfortable with the surroundings, the magnetic psi fields, psi conductivity, negative energy fields, chakra annoyances, and quantum quicksand quagmires.

The successful runs are controls, to be certain the dowser is happy and secure in his ability. His results will generally ;) be 100% correct hits. Then, a non intrusive assistant, approved by the dowser, signals for the randomizing automated totally silent machinery to move the target, taking only 5 seconds to do so. He then signals for the dowser to begin dowsing (and can even leave the room) for the now hidden target. Neither he nor the assistant knows where the target resides. This is double blinding.

If the dowser fails to successfully find the target at a rate that exceeds chance, how can we explain this other than that he can only succeed when he knows where the target is? Q.E.D. Pete enim est propter temetipsum. (Latin: For Pete's sake!)

If some random outside unseen, undetectable, unanalyzable, untestable force has still compromised the test, then dowsing via psi is just not a very practical or useful, let alone reliable, thing to fool with.
 
Olowkow said:
If the dowser fails to successfully find the target at a rate that exceeds chance, how can we explain this other than that he can only succeed when he knows where the target is? Q.E.D. Pete enim est propter temetipsum. (Latin: For Pete's sake!)
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And if the dowser succeeds in all ways, he wins a million dollars and the MDC goes down in smoke. Instant fame. The world, shocked, sits up and takes notice of parapsychology in a way it never has before. The collective unconscious convulses. Fear, confusion, anger, etc. Then the real arms-race begins. After the witch-burning, of course. Guess who the witch is.

The collective unconscious is of course fully capable of anticipating that dark timeline and preventing it in the most efficient manner, unfortunately for the claimant. Or perhaps, fortunately. Just as an individual is fully capable of unconsciously anticipating shocking or arousing stimuli and preparing the body for it. Just as a goat is fully capable of knowing what the next card is so as to avoid calling it.

If some random outside unseen, undetectable, unanalyzable, untestable force has still compromised the test, then dowsing via psi is just not a very practical or useful, let alone reliable, thing to fool with.
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Dowsing works fine as long as it isn't attempted on a scale that would send the collective unconscious into shock.
 
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Hardly. The majority of the world believes in such things. The reaction from that portion of the majority who heard about the success would be along the lines of "Hah! Told ya! In yer face, skeptics!"

The reaction from skeptics like me and from scientists would be along the lines of "Huh. That's strange. Let's see if we can replicate it."

Your claim is not only that this ability exists but that it is sentient and capable of acting according to its will separate from any human knowledge, ability, or intent. How you came to know such a thing is, I'm sure, quite an interesting tale.
 
Limbo said:
And if the dowser succeeds in all ways, he wins a million dollars and the MDC goes down in smoke. Instant fame. The world, shocked, sits up and takes notice of parapsychology in a way it never has before. The collective unconscious convulses. Fear, confusion, anger, etc. Then the real arms-race begins. After the witch-burning, of course. Guess who the witch is.

The collective unconscious is of course fully capable of anticipating that dark timeline and preventing it in the most efficient manner, unfortunately for the claimant. Or perhaps, fortunately. Just as an individual is fully capable of anticipating shocking or arousing stimuli and preparing the body for it. Just as a goat is fully capable of knowing what the next card is so as to avoid calling it.

Dowsing works fine as long as it isn't attempted on a scale that would send the collective unconscious into shock.
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Oh, the negative psi of the skeptics nulls out the positive psi of the dowsers. Of course. There is another thread for that idea...
 
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http://forum.britishdowsers.org/vie...4&sid=7639f9de12da6520bcc5b2c656140974#p17814
Re: Does anyone here think that...
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by Mick » Mon Jul 14, 2014 7:38 pm
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Geoff Stuttaford wrote:Yes, Mick. I would go even further to say that we enter a different dimension when dowsing.
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I don't understand that.
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If I were a betting man, I'd bet on SaskMick's (AKA Mick) eventual return to JREF. I don't think he yet quite understands the level of crazy at BSoD. He has that questioning spirit that will not easily be silenced. They'll boot him if he gets too inquisitive.
 
Olowkow said:
I think some dowsers believe that the rods themselves are crucial to the detection of a particular item, such as water or gold. They seem to believe that the material in the rod is attracted selectively to various things. I vaguely remember seeing adverts for various types of rods, copper, brass, steel, aluminum and even twisted copper wire rods which apparently were material specific for dowsers' searches.

Other dowsers appear to believe that the rods are just a tool, and it is the mind that somehow causes rod movement to indicate the location of the desired item. In this group, some accept the ideomotor effect as the mechanism for causing the movement, while others believe the mind magically moves the rods. The information which informs the mind to cause the movement directly or indirectly is believed alternately to be derived from god or yet unknown forces/senses possessed by humans. Some dowsers bristle at the idea that the information can be simply derived by the dowser's known senses, which is in fact the case, while others give an impression of possibly allowing for this likelihood but cannot tell you which sense would be responsible.

Most seem to be content with the broad notion of "information dowsing".

Though the sample set is small, this is my best understanding of the classes of dowsers. It doesn't seem to matter what you believe when among dowsers, just as long as you don't start asking to do any double blind trials, or question the validity of any claims of discovery. They really don't like skeptics. I can't decide whether dowsers are as a group afraid to know the truth, just because dowsing is so much fun, or whether they honestly think skeptics are at once evil, dangerous, damaging to their craft, and maliciously disbelieving for nefarious purposes...or perhaps some combination of these.

What is very likely going on is that dowsers are generally just not interested in nor appreciative of scientific explanations of natural phenomena. It's like learning boring facts for them, and they already know all they need to know, which to them feels like a scientific method of their own. Having special arcane knowledge and a desire to share it with others can be the norm in an academic setting, but it is also often one symptom of certain mental issues and of aging in general.

I think some people are members at BSoD just because they enjoy other people who don't need evidence for their beliefs and don't even have a real interest in dowsing. In some ways, it is reminiscent of the past lives forum we encountered years ago. There is a wide variety of woo over there at BSoD, including reincarnation.
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Thank You for that well written response.

I was unaware that there was a split among the dowsers, Not that it seems to cause any contention between the two.

My second question is, Why is it, Seemingly, With dowsers that they are among the most stubborn and quick with the excuses in the world of woo?

It also seems like a gateway drug to planet woo, Maybe its the ease of access to a simple bent wire hanger that lures the curious in.
 
Nay_Sayer said:
Thank You for that well written response.
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+1

It also seems like a gateway drug to planet woo, Maybe its the ease of access to a simple bent wire hanger that lures the curious in.
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I think it's the powerful shock of agency. The stick moves in your hand. Sticks don't move, every child knows this. And yet!

The ideomotor effect is the gateway. After that it's all cognitive dissonance and company; on down Woo hill.
 
Nay_Sayer said:
Thank You for that well written response.

I was unaware that there was a split among the dowsers, Not that it seems to cause any contention between the two.

My second question is, Why is it, Seemingly, With dowsers that they are among the most stubborn and quick with the excuses in the world of woo?

It also seems like a gateway drug to planet woo, Maybe its the ease of access to a simple bent wire hanger that lures the curious in.
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I appreciate your feedback.

I spent considerable time reading in the BSoD forum since JREF has been all but unusable due to delays. As I said before, there is a wide variety of woo bandied about at BSoD, none of which is ever seriously challenged. The comments from posters are very often so ambiguous that it is impossible for one to determine what they actually believe. I have been following Mick's vain attempts at starting a dialogue with these folks which are thwarted by either snark or confusing replies. He, the main mod and forum owner are almost the only posters these days. Then, of course, there is the poor guy who keeps seeing nearly daily UFOs and posting about them in his own personal thread. Wow. What you don't see over there, curiously, is religion. Well, it is the UK after all.

Dowsing seems to permit viewing it as analogous to a type of religion with many different sects, complete with supernatural type experiences, ritualized behaviors, tenets albeit loosely held, and special knowledge which is just too arcane for the non believers. Like a religion, at the end of the day, it really doesn't matter much what specific beliefs are held or espoused, as long as someone self identifies as a Judeo-Christian (or dowser) he is accepted and nurtured, up to a point, by other Judeo-Christians (dowsers).

Furthermore, questioning anyone's personal experiences with God/dowsing, can invoke the wrath (i.e. name calling) of the entire community of believers.

What has always struck me as surprising is the utterly blind confidence (faith) which seems to characterize the dowser. Often they seem to think that their detractors have never really tried dowsing (heard the Word), don't understand what dowsers are doing or claiming because of lack of experience or intelligence, or the skeptics merely disbelieve out of some misplaced motives which are seldom ever made clear (mad at God).

I think what stirred such interest in SaskMick's claims was his desire to self identify in a roundabout way as a "former skeptic" and that he was so unwilling to learn from such obviously willing, experienced and knowledgeable teachers here at JREF, yet somehow instantly found credibility in the dowsers' teachings at BSoD.

I, for one, found it unusual in the extreme that a self-styled skeptic could realistically ever be so quickly and completely taken in by his first experience with the ideomotor effect. I mean, his enthusiasm was bordering on that of a born again fundamentalist theist discovering the burning in the belly, or hearing the voice of God.

It may take him a while, but SaskMick could just wind up coming back to JREF, and it will be a most interesting thread if he does.

ETA: Specifically to your question, I can't say I see a lot of difference in "stubborn and quick with the excuses" type tenacity among the various woo peddlers. Although Cuddles, in the post below, does have an interesting point, homeopathy, astrology, AGW denial, conspiracy theorists, etc. all have their elements of digging in their heels and complex pre- and post- apologetics.
 
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Nay_Sayer said:
My second question is, Why is it, Seemingly, With dowsers that they are among the most stubborn and quick with the excuses in the world of woo?
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The problem dowsers have is that they make a solid claim that can be easily tested in an entirely objective manner. Most woo tends to be rather vague - how many psychics give specific details rather than "I'm getting a T"? How many give firm predictions rather than "Something bad will happen at some point in the future"? Technically they are making excuses all the time, it just tends to be phrased as part of the claim - "I can talk to spirits, but they can only see through the veil in a fuzzy manner so all information must be interpreted". It's nothing more than an excuse for being vague, but it doesn't necessarily seem like it because it's stated right up front.

Dowsers, on the other hand, generally come right out and say "I can find things", and either they can or they can't. In the latter case, they therefore need to come up with all kinds of excuses after the fact. It's not so much that they're quicker to come up with excuses, it's just that the excuses are more obvious because they tend to come after an obvious failure rather than being given beforehand to explain why you won't be able to tell the difference between success and failure.
 
Cuddles said:
The problem dowsers have is that they make a solid claim that can be easily tested in an entirely objective manner. Most woo tends to be rather vague - how many psychics give specific details rather than "I'm getting a T"? How many give firm predictions rather than "Something bad will happen at some point in the future"? Technically they are making excuses all the time, it just tends to be phrased as part of the claim - "I can talk to spirits, but they can only see through the veil in a fuzzy manner so all information must be interpreted". It's nothing more than an excuse for being vague, but it doesn't necessarily seem like it because it's stated right up front.

Dowsers, on the other hand, generally come right out and say "I can find things", and either they can or they can't. In the latter case, they therefore need to come up with all kinds of excuses after the fact. It's not so much that they're quicker to come up with excuses, it's just that the excuses are more obvious because they tend to come after an obvious failure rather than being given beforehand to explain why you won't be able to tell the difference between success and failure.
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Yeah I realized 'quick' wasn't what I meant.

As a specific example James Randi's Australia dowsing challenge is a good example of how adapt they are at explaining away their failures.
 
Latest from BSoD:

Mick wrote
Hold your rods in the dowsing position and walk straight into a wall.
​
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DCW: Why?
What are you trying to achieve?
If what you are focusing on is the other side of the wall you will go in to it.
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WTF?

And of course, sadly, now Mick has replaced googling with dowsing.

M: I will go further than saying I just think. I Know that dowsing is a form of self hypnosis.
G: Yes, Mick. I would go even further to say that we enter a different dimension when dowsing.
M: I don't understand that.
G: I don’t either ! But may I suggest that you dowse to see if I am right and, if you get a “yes”, you can always dowse and ask more questions.
M: I get a no.
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All I can think of to say is, "Thank you JREF".
 
Nay_Sayer said:
My second question is, Why is it, Seemingly, With dowsers that they are among the most stubborn and quick with the excuses in the world of woo?
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I think that it's incredibly easy to delude yourself into thinking that you have dowsing powers. Once you have this fantasy, you build explanations for it, and you're not able to see how ridiculous they are. They start with a conclusion and rationalize the argument.

The Million Dollar Challenge blocks dowsing powers, but being paid by a farmer doesn't? Billions are spent every year developing and maintaining complex technological sensors less capable than some guy with two coat hangers? It's as laughable as believing there's a nine-foot undiscovered primate in North America.
 
Limbo said:
And if the dowser succeeds in all ways, he wins a million dollars and the MDC goes down in smoke. Instant fame. The world, shocked, sits up and takes notice of parapsychology in a way it never has before. The collective unconscious convulses. Fear, confusion, anger, etc. Then the real arms-race begins. After the witch-burning, of course. Guess who the witch is.

The collective unconscious is of course fully capable of anticipating that dark timeline and preventing it in the most efficient manner, unfortunately for the claimant. Or perhaps, fortunately. Just as an individual is fully capable of unconsciously anticipating shocking or arousing stimuli and preparing the body for it. Just as a goat is fully capable of knowing what the next card is so as to avoid calling it.
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So why did this "shock to the unconscious" not happen when we got proof of such paradigm-shifting innovations as
  • a heliocentric solar system
  • the germ theory of disease
  • heavier-than-air flight
  • television
  • quantum mechanics
  • handheld computers
  • Lunchables
and many others? Why weren't these prevented by the collective unconscious?
 
poblob14 said:
So why did this "shock to the unconscious" not happen when we got proof of such paradigm-shifting innovations as
  • a heliocentric solar system
  • the germ theory of disease
  • heavier-than-air flight
  • television
  • quantum mechanics
  • handheld computers
  • Lunchables
and many others? Why weren't these prevented by the collective unconscious?
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People are not yet aware of the dark psychic aura surrounding luchables.

I am ready for the nuclear luchable fallout, I have duct taped the windows and installed draft stoppers.
 
Garrette said:
There are two versions of Sheep-Goat Effect. The first, and more accurate, usage is as Limbo has used it, i.e., the effect of belief vs. non-belief of the subject in regard to a subject's performance in an experiment.

The second, less accurate, usage is the effect of belief vs. non-belief of the experimenter in regard to the subject's performance in an experiment. This should be called the Experimenter Effect.

The term was coined by Gertrude Schmeidler in 1958, but I cannot find an actual paper of the studies, though there are multiple references to them. Whether they appeared in a reputable journal or not, I do not know. She has a couple of books out, though, which by their titles appear to be associated with the idea. Here's one.

I do not know if the British Journal of Psychology is a respectable journal, but here is an abstract of a paper regarding the Sheep-Goat effect. The paper itself requires payment; I have not read it, but the abstract is informative.
This is a paper regarding the Experimenter Effect.

Here is the abstract of another paper by the same author, this time in the Journal of Consciousness Studies.
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Thanks for the links!
 
Olowkow said:
Latest from BSoD:

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WTF?

And of course, sadly, now Mick has replaced googling with dowsing.

All I can think of to say is, "Thank you JREF".
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It reminds me of the Twilight Zone episode "In the Nick of Time"

When Don and Pat Carter's automobile breaks down in Ridgeview, Ohio, they decide to have lunch at the Busy Bee Cafe while they wait. The booth they sit in has a fortune telling machine on the table that answers yes or no questions for a penny each. Don asks the "mystic seer" if he is going to get a promotion at work. The card says that it has been decided in his favor. When Don calls the office, he discovers that the seer was right. Because of this initial success, Don asks the seer more and more questions.



The breaking point comes when Don wants the seer to tell him where they're going to live and asks the seer every conceivable yes/no question to arrive at that information. Pat tries to break the spell the seer has over Don. After a persuasive speech from Pat, Don apologizes and then announces directly to the mystic seer that they're leaving to go do what they please. After their cautious but uneventful exit to their car and out of town, a slightly older couple enters the diner. The couple is noticeably beleaguered and distraught. Approaching the same mystic seer, the man first asks the seer if they can ask more questions. After receiving an apparently affirmative answer, the man asks a series of questions including, "Do you think we might leave Ridgeview today?" The couple is obviously deflated by the answers to this question and others and, unlike the now free Don and Pat, will remain trapped by their addiction to the seer's "counsel".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_of_Time_(The_Twilight_Zone)
 
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