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Down wind faster than the wind

Just for those who joined the thread late, I've made up a brief collection of posts to read to catch up. (Click on the arrow next to the poster's name.)

This is a wind powered craft that purports to travel directly down wind faster than the wind powering it.
@my wan
Having though it over, I would expect that efficiency alone would prevent the vehicle from reaching, let alone exceeding, the wind.
The concept of the propeller vanes 'tacking' is interesting.
Did anyone notice that the propeller rotates the way a plane propeller rotates, and not like a generator?
Perhaps the videos are red herrings, but this is the part that I don't understand.
Okay, I have now come up with a model of a device similar to the OP
A vehicle has a 1:1 wheel/fan ratio ,and travels approaching windspeed x.
Okay, here's my final analysis of the device in the OP.
George Sychrovsky does not suggest cheating.
You're kidding - right?
Of course. The propeller creates drag, which also restrains the device.
This is at the root of the debate spork and I had on physicsforums.
J13, I think we are almostin agreement, but not that the actual device will work.
Not completely equivalent for the reasons I originally specified on physicsforums.
Traveling upwind is possible, and that is effectively traveling downstream faster than the water
As this is an educational forum, I'll try and offer something useful to those who have a hard time wrapping their minds around the OP device, but are willing to give it a try.
It doesn't slow it down, it only slows down how fast it accelerates until the wind is resistance gets so high it can't accelerate anymore.
Yes, the downwind component can be 3X or more the wind speed. There is plenty of GPS data to back this up.
Yes, this is exactly like my starting point.
Well, it is undeniable that physics is empirical, but that is not the same as simple trial and error, or dare I say it, speculation.
I'm glad to finally get any sort of clarification. Now take a close look at this sentence:
Good point. I'll use this sentence of yours to represent what you said:
You say you'd expect to get the same results, but you describe different results than we consistently get.
Yes, and so does the speed of the air that the propeller pushes back.
Yes, except that the wind is not what's turning the prop.
Wait... I originally thought this device was supposed to be powered by the wind turning the propeller, like a windmill.
This thing, if it works, is certainly not a perpetual motion machine.
This is an absolute train wreck.



And... here are my fumbling attempts to explain my newfound understanding...

I think I owe apologies all around. After thinking about what was happening in the video and the forces involved, I realized where I was going wrong in my mind.
I thought the same thing too.
It sounds like it, but you can add up an infinite series of numbers which never pass a fixed limit.
There are several factors which affect the "gearing",
Sorry... I was trying to explain to Humber
That's sort of how I looked at it when I joined this thread, but I've had to change my mind since.
 
It is driven forward by the wind, but they way it is used on the treadmill, leads you to think that it works the other way.
By the wind acting on what? It can be the propeller because that would make the vehicle go backwards. How does a forwards wind give energy to a propeller that is creating a backwards wind? Please explain exactly what part and how the vehicle is getting energy from the wind.
 
From the road.

Look - imagine, instead of a cart on a road, a zeppelin floating in the air. Suppose at some altitude there's an interface between two layers of the atmosphere, with one moving with respect to the other. So to someone at rest in the lower level, the upper level is moving rapidly (to the left, say), while someone facing the same way but at rest in the upper level would say the lower level is moving rapidly to the right.

Now, imaging our zeppelin is floating at this altitude. It can lower a sail or propeller up, down, or both. We're interested in the case where it's moving at the speed of the upper layer (like the wind for the cart). Then the layer below it is moving rapidly to the right. Question - can the zeppelin use that motion to move to the left; i.e. into the wind below it? The answer is clearly yes - it's easy to design things that move into the wind.

But if you agree, that's it - you agree something can move downwind faster than the wind (because that's what the zeppelin will do with respect to the upper layer). Just replace the lower layer with ground, and the lower sail/propeller with wheels, and you're there.

If you don't agree, I can give you plenty of examples of things that move into the wind.

Does that help? The only thing that ever matters is relative motion, and the energy is always coming from there.
What energy does a stationary road provide? Surely if the energy is not coming from the wind on the propeller (the propeller is apparently making wind) then it has to be from the momentum of the vehicle against the road. But were does the energy for this momentum come from? (batteries ;-)
 
What energy does a stationary road provide? Surely if the energy is not coming from the wind on the propeller (the propeller is apparently making wind) then it has to be from the momentum of the vehicle against the road. But were does the energy for this momentum come from? (batteries ;-)

Stationary with respect to what? Part of the point I was trying to make with the zeppelin example is that it makes precisely as much sense to say the road is moving and the air is stationary as it does to say the wind is blowing.

Once you get that you see that there's no problem gaining energy from the road (at least as long as there's a velocity difference between road and wind). The usable energy comes from that difference, really.

Anyway, think about the zeppelin - I think it will clear this up.
 
You're correct for ordinary sailboats. But once you admit you can go downwind faster than the wind at any angle, you're almost there. In principle it doesn't cost any energy to jibe (it's actually called jibing, not tacking, when you turn with the wind rather than into it). So you can jibe back and forth and go as straight downwind as you like, with an average speed much faster than the wind. In principle you could attach two sail or ice boats together, each jibing back and forth in a crossing pattern, so the whole contraption moves straight downwind.

My experience doesn't support this conclusion. My apologies for skimming the thread but as a sailor, what I can offer here is that a boat can often travel faster on a reach (downwind version of a tack - a vector) than a boat on a dead run (straight down wind) but neither is actually travelling faster downwind than absolute windspeed. That would entail extracting more energy from the wind than exists.

You can travel faster than windspeed on a vector. But you can't exceed direct downwind windspeed. Not without another source of energy, that is.

What does happen is that reaching boats sometimes get downwind faster because their sails are working more efficiently. Lamilar flow (a reaching sail) uses energy better than turbulent flow (a running sail)

I think what you are seeing with the iceboats is stored momentum. They have little friction in good conditions, and so when jibing they exceed the windspeed downwind for a short while, but averaged over time they won't exceed it in an absolute sense. and when reaching, their sails are working optimally, like wings, keeping pressure and flow close to perfect. Running downwind spills air in turbulent vortices and wastes energy.

Meaning if wind is due South at an average of 20 mph for one hour, a boat won't go more than 20 miles due South in one hour (unless energy is stored in some way). It may travel 60 miles on other compass points, but not due South.
The boat reaching and jibing may be moving faster through the water but must cover a greater distance than the a boat running downwind, and actually may travel closer to the directional windspeed because sails are more efficient when operating in laminar flow (as an airfoil) than when running straight downwind, which creates a great deal of turbulent flow and spillage around the sail.

Visualize a parachute vs., a airfoil wing and you get the idea.

But the performance difference between reaching downwind vs. running can be subtle. In a race like the Transpac, where the predominance of conditions favor running, boats are designed with huge sail area and flat hulls, basically surfboards with giant spinnakers (the sailing equivalent of the parachute) to plane as close to windspeed as possible. But it is never exceeded.

To add to the complexity, a lot of what goes on in sailing strategies invloves trade offs of hull design and rigging. Without going into details, but proving the subtleties of the described dynamics, one can often reach on downwind vectors, crossing back and forth close to a boat running straight downwind, and see advantage wax and wane as hull speeds are exceeded, sails are changed, windspeed changes, etc. The point is the fine line of all this tuning suggest that the crafts are using energy well, and often win or lose based on very small variables.
 
Caveat: those annecdotal details are based on displacement hull sailboats. I'm looking at the Skeeter graphs and wondering if the Apparent Wind shift (extreme) minus hull friction mean I may have been mistaken.
 
Grey_ice
Done all that. Read the posts.

If you are looking for something original to contribute, then you might try and find the flaw in my treadmill drawings that show it to be a sham.
:rolleyes:

Not the least little bit of understanding.
 
What energy does a stationary road provide? Surely if the energy is not coming from the wind on the propeller (the propeller is apparently making wind) then it has to be from the momentum of the vehicle against the road. But were does the energy for this momentum come from? (batteries ;-)


On the treadmill, it gets it's energy from the belt turning it's wheels.
On the road, it gets it's energy from the road turning it's wheels.

Relative to the wind, and the cart, the road is moving, just like on a treadmill belt.

If you don't like to think of the road as moving, even though that's a perfectly valid way to think of it, you could think of it this way...

If it is moving along the ground, it has kinetic energy. It's sacrificing some of this kinetic energy to turn the propeller. (Shedding this energy has the effect of slowing it down, but...) By using gearing, the propeller is pushing the air backwards with a greater force (but less velocity, that's the trade-off from gearing) than it's getting from the wheels. If you combine the lower velocity with the existing wind-speed, it's enough to move the cart forward faster than it was slowed down loseing energy to turn the propeller.
 
Stationary with respect to what? Part of the point I was trying to make with the zeppelin example is that it makes precisely as much sense to say the road is moving and the air is stationary as it does to say the wind is blowing.

Once you get that you see that there's no problem gaining energy from the road (at least as long as there's a velocity difference between road and wind). The usable energy comes from that difference, really.

Anyway, think about the zeppelin - I think it will clear this up.
The road is stationary in that it is the “constant” that the speed of the wind and vehicle are measured against in the local environment. The “natural” position of the vehicle is to be stationary relative the road and a “moving” vehicle will slow down and “stop” relative to if the road isn’t being constantly accelerated. In the scenario we are discussing the only energy source that moves the vehicle relative to the road is the wind not the road.
 
But, if I am slower than the traffic, how do I make progress forward unless I pass someone? It's crowded, I will probably have to push someone out of the way to do that, and that will slow me down.


Either you haven't taken the time to think this through or you're an idiot.

If the traffic is travelling at 2 mph, and you're travelling at 1mph, you can go an entire 1 mph faster without ever pushing past anyone! There is no force pushing you backwards.

In fact, if you're wearing roller-skates, the bumping and jostling of the dense crowd pushing past you will speed you up until you're going the same speed as everyone else. No effort required on your part. You're effectively floating or sailing along with the crowd.

As this brings you up to the same speed of the crowd, there's no longer any bumping or jostling because no-one is passing you anymore, and you still aren't passing anyone yourself.

Only as far as the interaction is concerned:
You say a person hitting a stationary car at 60mph, is the same as a car hitting a stationary person at 60mph.

If the person hits the car, how far will the car move?
If the car hits the person, what then?
Will the person in each case, have the same velocity and kinetic energy?
Which interaction will last longer?


There is no difference. Change in velicity, kinetic energy, and how far the 60 mph pedestrian 'bounces' will be identical relative to the hypothetical giant treadmill belt as it would be with a stationary pedestrian relative to the road.
 
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On the treadmill, it gets it's energy from the belt turning it's wheels.
On the road, it gets it's energy from the road turning it's wheels.

Relative to the wind, and the cart, the road is moving, just like on a treadmill belt.

If you don't like to think of the road as moving, even though that's a perfectly valid way to think of it, you could think of it this way...

If it is moving along the ground, it has kinetic energy. It's sacrificing some of this kinetic energy to turn the propeller. (Shedding this energy has the effect of slowing it down, but...) By using gearing, the propeller is pushing the air backwards with a greater force (but less velocity, that's the trade-off from gearing) than it's getting from the wheels. If you combine the lower velocity with the existing wind-speed, it's enough to move the cart forward faster than it was slowed down loseing energy to turn the propeller.
It’s not just the road turning the wheels. Without the energy from the speed of the wind relative to the road the wheels wouldn’t turn.
 
The road is stationary in that it is the “constant” that the speed of the wind and vehicle are measured against in the local environment. The “natural” position of the vehicle is to be stationary relative the road and a “moving” vehicle will slow down and “stop” relative to if the road isn’t being constantly accelerated. In the scenario we are discussing the only energy source that moves the vehicle relative to the road is the wind not the road.


If there was no friction or wind resistance, then a moving vehicle would never slow down. With no accelleration it could never become stationary relative to the ground.

Friction, wind resistance, etc, causes the vehicle to accelerate. This acceleration is just in the opposite direction to it's relative velocity. This is usually called deceleration, which is acceleration, just in the opposite direction.

The end result of this friction is to decelerate the vehicle relative to the ground, and also to decelerate the ground relative to the vehicle.

The relative momentum lost from the earth is identical to the relative momentum lost from the vehicle. It's just that the earth is so big that these changes in momentum have little or no measurable effect.
 
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I just created a down-belt-faster-than-the-belt vehicle using Phun. This is identical to Thabiguy's paddle-wheel-based DWFTTW device conceived of early in this thread, except that instead of a paddle wheel driven by the wind, there is a wheel driven by an overhead belt. It actually does work in Phun (it moves down belt faster than the belt).

 
The kinetic energy of a vehicle alone can’t be geared up to make the vehicle travel faster (that would be perpetual motion/free energy).

Whatever help the vehicle gets from a tailwind is completely lost when the vehicle reaches the speed of the wind.

At the speed of the wind the vehicle only has it’s own kinetic energy to accelerate faster than the wind (impossible)

When the vehicle travels faster than the speed of the wind it loses the advantage of a tailwind and gains the disadvantage of a headwind.
 
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Last night when I started looking at this problem I thought it must be a hoax and started looking for a clue to how it was done. After searching Google maps for the street in Goodman's video and identifying the make and model of the treadmill in Spork's videos, I figured it out this morning.

The illusion is very good. However, since this thread is in the science section and not the conjurers corner, there is no reason I cannot share how it was done.

I'll start with a simplified diagram of a cart on a wheel:


As each spoke of the wheel is pointing straight down, imagine that a sail is unfurled from the midpoint of that spoke. The diagram is a snapshot of one such spoke with its sail. Since the sail is only moving at 5 m/s (half the speed of the cart), there is a 5 m/s wind pushing forward on the sail. The force of the wind is transmitted via the spoke equally to the ground and to the cart resulting in accelerating the cart. With no other losses, the cart would continue to accelerate until it was moving at twice the speed of the wind.

The cart with the propeller driven by the wheels operates in a similar fashion. The pitch and gearing are set so the propeller if freely spinning (neither pushing forward or backward against the wind) when the cart is moving at some multiple faster than the wind. I think they used 1.7x in one example. When the cart is moving slower than this, there is a net force accelerating the cart forward. With other sources of drag, the cart will reach an equilibrium speed less than the 1.7x wind speed but still faster than the wind if the drag is small.
 
If there was no friction or wind resistance, then a moving vehicle would never slow down. With no accelleration it could never become stationary relative to the ground.

Friction, wind resistance, etc, causes the vehicle to accelerate. This acceleration is just in the opposite direction to it's relative velocity. This is usually called deceleration, which is acceleration, just in the opposite direction.

The end result of this friction is to decelerate the vehicle relative to the ground, and also to decelerate the ground relative to the vehicle.

The relative momentum lost from the earth is identical to the relative momentum lost from the vehicle. It's just that the earth is so big that these changes in momentum have little or no measurable effect.
Yes but in the world in which we live there always is friction and that’s why a vehicle can’t even sustain it’s own kinetic energy let alone be geared up (more friction) to increase it. Even if there was no friction or any other energy loss the vehicle could only retain it’s current kinetic energy and speed and not accelerate faster.
 
Last night when I started looking at this problem I thought it must be a hoax and started looking for a clue to how it was done. After searching Google maps for the street in Goodman's video and identifying the make and model of the treadmill in Spork's videos, I figured it out this morning.

The illusion is very good. However, since this thread is in the science section and not the conjurers corner, there is no reason I cannot share how it was done.

I'll start with a simplified diagram of a cart on a wheel:
[URL]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_15144492502fef1f48.jpg[/URL]

As each spoke of the wheel is pointing straight down, imagine that a sail is unfurled from the midpoint of that spoke. The diagram is a snapshot of one such spoke with its sail. Since the sail is only moving at 5 m/s (half the speed of the cart), there is a 5 m/s wind pushing forward on the sail. The force of the wind is transmitted via the spoke equally to the ground and to the cart resulting in accelerating the cart. With no other losses, the cart would continue to accelerate until it was moving at twice the speed of the wind.

The cart with the propeller driven by the wheels operates in a similar fashion. The pitch and gearing are set so the propeller if freely spinning (neither pushing forward or backward against the wind) when the cart is moving at some multiple faster than the wind. I think they used 1.7x in one example. When the cart is moving slower than this, there is a net force accelerating the cart forward. With other sources of drag, the cart will reach an equilibrium speed less than the 1.7x wind speed but still faster than the wind if the drag is small.

Sorry but I think you’re meowing up the wrong tree.
 
The kinetic energy of a vehicle alone can’t be geared up to make the vehicle travel faster (that would be perpetual motion/free energy).

This vehicle isn't just moving because of its kinetic energy. It doesn't need a push to get started. It is indeed using the energy from the wind. By "wind" we have to be careful what we mean: we are not talking about the speed of the air relative to the vehicle, we are talking about the speed of the air relative to the ground.

Whatever help the vehicle gets from a tailwind is completely lost when the vehicle reaches the speed of the wind.

No, because the wheels are turning against the ground, causing the propeller to turn against the air.

At the speed of the wind the vehicle only has it’s own kinetic energy to accelerate faster than the wind (impossible)

No, see above.

When the vehicle travels faster than the speed of the wind it loses the advantage of a tailwind and gains the disadvantage of a headwind.

Not for the blades of the turning propeller. It's true that the rest of the vehicle loses the advantage of the tailwind, but as you can see from the video, only a very small surface is being pushed by the tailwind. The propeller is still churning through the air, producing a forward thrust. The vehicle will reach a point where the speed of the propeller is exactly adapted to the speed of the vehicle through the air: no more drag is produced and the vehicle stays at a steady speed.
 
I just created a down-belt-faster-than-the-belt vehicle using Phun. This is identical to Thabiguy's paddle-wheel-based DWFTTW device conceived of early in this thread, except that instead of a paddle wheel driven by the wind, there is a wheel driven by an overhead belt. It actually does work in Phun (it moves down belt faster than the belt).

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_117824924fd6c0ea03.png[/qimg]

Nice. Could you post a video of it (maybe to YouTube?).
 

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