Does Your Social or Political Bias Override Your Reasoning Ability?

[arthwollipot]

Productive means turning non-usable resources into useful items.

Then I can think of quite a lot of highly-paid but unproductive people.

The very few children who starve to death in the Western world usually do so for reasons other than the parents could not afford to buy food.

In the '90s, I lived in a slum of an apartment complex in East Texas. Our slumlord took food stamps, or pretty much anything else, as payment for rent. I knew a family whose children had only dry cereal to eat just a few days after getting food stamps, because the parents used the food stamps to buy silly things, like a tent. I don't remember how they managed to make that trade.

They wouldn't have to under a UBI.

We have trouble getting people to show up for work now.

Not as much as you'd think. The main reason for having trouble getting people to work is that you're not paying them enough. America in particular has terrible labour laws that allow massive amounts of exploitation with just enough recompense that it is legally distinct from slavery.

Most people waste a lot of money.

The people who can barely get by on food stamps don't.

Like what happened with the Internet! Desktop publishing and then Web pages unleashed the creative forces of the oppressed masses, and the world was filled with stunning, new literature!

It was indeed filled with stunning, new literature. A lot of it was crap. A lot of it wasn't. It's the exploitative tech giants that are actively enshittifying it right now. The internet of the late 2000s and 2010s was magnificent.

You can take the drone away from the desk, but you can't take the drone out of the drone.

Sounds pithy, but most drones are only drones because they have to be in order to survive.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Nobody "just sits on" millions of dollars. They invest it or keep it in banks, where it is used to build new wealth creation machines. ...

This is a myth, easily tested. Though a lot of the wealth goes into building weapons and related hardware.

 

[Venom]

Evidence?

????

Now this is just getting silly.

Do you think it is valuable to set aside political views to fact check claims?

It's not like being super skeptical or pedantic in this forum is going to change things out there.

 

[catsmate]

Do you think it is valuable to set aside political views to fact check claims?

It's not like being super skeptical or pedantic in this forum is going to change things out there.

You made the claims.....

 

[Venom]

You made the claims.....

You can find plenty of examples, especially in politics threads, of attempts to kill scrutiny over questionable claims with basically "well your side still bad so we don't care".

Is that not activism over skepticism?

 

[ponderingturtle]

All societies ever since societies first existed have had impoverished people. If the solution were simple, at least one of them should have solved it, I would think. So, what is this simple solution?

Because it is an important part of capitalism and hence a good thing. If no one was starving what incentive would people have to work? This is how we know there is an optimal rate of child deaths due to starvation for example.

 

[Trausti]

Because it is an important part of capitalism and hence a good thing. If no one was starving what incentive would people have to work? This is how we know there is an optimal rate of child deaths due to starvation for example.

Actually, capitalism is the solution.

 

[arthwollipot]

That graph does not demonstrate that capitalism is the solution.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Actually, capitalism is the solution.

Yes I know like how Martin Shkreli is one of the true geniuses of modern medicine. He really understood that it isn't saving lives but making money and priced his medications accordingly. Genius capitalist there exactly what the country needs more of.

 

[Trausti]

Yes I know like how Martin Shkreli is one of the true geniuses of modern medicine. He really understood that it isn't saving lives but making money and priced his medications accordingly. Genius capitalist there exactly what the country needs more of.

These sort of critiques of capitalism are befuddling. You're simply saying that some humans behave badly. That's true. But no human institution is free of badly behaving humans. It's part of human nature. You're not suggesting that the Soviet Union was free of bad human behavior, or Maoist China, or Canada, are you? So regardless of the economic system, you're going to have badly behaving humans. But with capitalism, you get those badly behaving humans plus fully stocked grocery stores.

 

[arthwollipot]

These sort of critiques of capitalism are befuddling. You're simply saying that some humans behave badly. That's true. But no human institution is free of badly behaving humans. It's part of human nature. You're not suggesting that the Soviet Union was free of bad human behavior, or Maoist China, or Canada, are you? So regardless of the economic system, you're going to have badly behaving humans. But with capitalism, you get those badly behaving humans plus fully stocked grocery stores.

"Everything with money works the same way really, it's like you know how like if you got a lot of money in the bank the bank will give you more money for having all that money in the bank but if you ain't got no money in the bank the bank will charge you money for having no money in the bank."

- Trae Crowder

The problem with capitalism, despite putting groceries on the shelves, is that it is rigged. The people with the money make the rules, because the rules were made by the people with the money, and they make the rules to benefit themselves. Which means that it's the badly behaving humans with money who make rules that make them more money. Because you don't make ◊◊◊◊ tons of money without being badly behaved.

America in particular doesn't even try to hide it (even when their democracy is functional which it isn't) with its heavy emphasis on campaign financing and the so-called "war chest". Anybody who is elected to public office has to immediately start their term campaigning to raise money, because without money you just don't get elected in America.

Meanwhile those poor sods without money get to starve, because even when there are groceries on the shelves they can't afford them even while working three minimum wage jobs, which are minimum wage because the rich people are incentivised to spend as small amount of their valuable money on other people as possible.

America could completely fund a Universal Basic Income by taxing the top 1% 1% of their income and reducing the defense budget by 1%. Poverty solved.

 

[Trausti]

The problem with capitalism, despite putting groceries on the shelves, is that it is rigged. The people with the money make the rules, because the rules were made by the people with the money, and they make the rules to benefit themselves. Which means that it's the badly behaving humans with money who make rules that make them more money. Because you don't make ◊◊◊◊ tons of money without being badly behaved.

Oh, right, that would never happen in a non-capitalist society. Never. Ever. Nope.

 

[arthwollipot]

Oh, right, that would never happen in a non-capitalist society. Never. Ever. Nope.

It wouldn't happen if the workers controlled the means of production, no.

 

[Trausti]

It wouldn't happen if the workers controlled the means of production, no.

I'm with you, Art. The socialist economies of the 20th Century were famously free of corruption.

 

[arthwollipot]

I'm with you, Art. The socialist economies of the 20th Century were famously free of corruption.

No 20th century country correctly implemented communism. They all ended up as dictatorships. And as we know, all dictators fall.

 

[Trausti]

No 20th century country correctly implemented communism. They all ended up as dictatorships. And as we know, all dictators fall.

Oh, you mean all prior human socialist experiments failed because they implemented socialism incorrectly? Well, we'll get it right next time. For sure!

 

[arthwollipot]

Um, do you understand the difference between socialism and communism?

 

[Trausti]

Um, do you understand the difference between socialism and communism?

If both proscribe capitalism, then both are equally useless. "The goal of socialism is communism."

 

[arthwollipot]

A lot of words to say "no".

 

[Trausti]

A lot of words to say "no".

Ah, you're right. The socialist economy that exists solely in your imagination is, no doubt, perfect. Free of all human frailty and self-interest. So comparing real-world experience with that imagined perfect system is a fool's errand. Such perfect socialism has not yet been achieved because you were not there to guide us.