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Does the soul exist?

Exactly JF, ... they are "brainwashed", and there is no "reasoning" with faith. Their goal is to bolster their faith by pretending to have subjected it to skeptical scrutiny. They are here to preach. They cannot learn because they think they already "know".
 
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No, I don't see your point...

Yes, there are problems with what came before the big bang... but it's not likely to be anything more complex than the big bang. Something as small as an atom and as intangible as an idea can become an atomic bomb.

And it doesn't seem to have any relevance in regards to souls. Consciousness is very complex and evolved over time... in brains that also evolved over time from genomes that evolved over time. It didn't need consciousness to plan it's existence... it just needed to be an asset to the the organisms that had it.
That's all reasonable, but it isn't my point. But you agree you don't see it, and it may be off topic anyway. I'm not sure. My point is one of ontology, and saying that whatever caused the big bang wasn't any more complex than a big bang doesn't deal with the problem - if you found a causal material behind big bangs, the same question will remain, what is the cause of the cause of big bangs? My point is that Dawkins (in the video of a section of a lecture) seems to imply that God-answers are weaker than science answers not just on the reasonable grounds that they don't explain observable facts as well, but because they are ontologically baseless, and I'm saying that fundamental particles, strings or universes, in scientific explanations, are just as ontologically baseless. Unless you can tell me why there is anything rather than nothing, you haven't addressed the question, just dismissed it. And here, often, science gets a little duplicitous, because it likes to avoid the fact that it has such limits - philosophically deeply problematic limits, not just ones of where it has got to in its discoveries - i.e. that it can never explain existence. No scientific description satisfies such a 'why' question. If it were proven exactly how universe after universe expands and collapses into the next, and has done so neverendingly because there is no time outside their existence - in one single perfect mathematical equation - any child could still see that the something-rather-than-nothing question remains. Why would it be so? What would the cause of all that be? I'm mystified as to why some sceptics/scientists either don't see the point or refuse to acknowledge it, or pretend that it doesn't matter. Of course, it doesn't if we limit ourselves to what is knowable and get on with our experiments with matter and forces and things we can measure, but some also like to pretend that science is working towards the ultimate answer to why things are as they are - even write books about the 'mind of God' - when they are not. It's like they are studying how a massive pile of lego bricks fit together, learning fascinating things about that, and assume that somehow if they keep doing that long enough they'll also find out where the lego came from, and whatever put the lego there...and whatever put the thing that put the lego there there...

What makes up the crane that builds the universe - or the internet - or anything, for that matter? That is my question. It is partly, I think, by being duplicitous about the nature of science, pretending that it does or ever could address ontological fundamentals, that it gives the religious leverage. If scientists pretend they're close to discovering the ultimate 'truth' that human beings seem so hungry for, and clearly aren't, they leave themselves open to the accusation that everything else they assert is wrong too. If we stick to saying that evolution explains better than biblical floods where fossils came from, we're on solid ground. If we start saying we have a better fundamental answer to why anything is here in the first place, we're simply lying. Whether it is 'something simpler than a big bang' or 'God' can only be speculation, and neither has any obvious first cause. It is as reasonable to say 'just because' as an answer to 'why would God be there?' as to 'why is there a simple mechanical cause of big bangs?'.
 
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No god is way out of the picture as an answer...

Because all gods that people believe in are invisible and immeasurable-- yet they have consciousness-- they have wants and desires. All the evidence seems to show that brains are required for consciousness...

If an entity can be invisible and immeasurable and still have a consciousness-- then that makes all such entities equally likely-- demons, fairies, souls, gods, thetans, sprites, angels, ghosts, wormhole alien visitors, etc. There's nothing to distinguish these entities from eachother, or from myths, or from delusions. We've learned that the brain evolved to see agency and associate correlation with causation. We see that humans readily confabulate invisible entities and immeasurable forces when we don't understand things.

We feel watched. As kids, it seems like the guy on the news is looking at you. But despite eons of us inventing these sorts of explanations, we don't have an iota of evidence that any kind of consciousness can exist outside a material brain. We've looked and looked-- we've believed for eons in all sorts of gods, demons, and such. And they disappeared when better explanations came along. Consciousness seems to absolutely require a brain. Consciousness is an emergent property that comes from brains that evolved over time. You destroy a hippocampus and you destroy a persons ability to make a new memory. No soul steps in to do the job. So what can anything be without any brain at all??

We cannot rationally posit a consciousness without a brain... and if we did-- then all of them are equally likely... demons, devils, incubi, thetans, gods, souls.

To posit a god as an explanation is to posit something that humans are known to "plug into" gaps in understanding. Saying I don't know is a much more rational statement that leads to much greater liklihood of understanding than positing an invisible, immeasurable, undetectable form of consciousness. Who would be the an expert on such a thing? How could we tell tell one brand of invisible consciousness from any other?

Saying "I don't know" is neutral... sticking "god" into the "I don't know" is wishful thinking. It would be the "ultimate" 747-- only invisible and immeasurable and indistinguishable from the non-existence of such.

I don't agree with you. I think you are describing a "god of the gaps"-- and those gods always tend to have more prosaic explanations once we get the information to fill in the gaps. I agree that the deist god is no threat to reason... but I don't agree that it's perfectly logical to posit such a thing. I think such a god is as unlikely as "souls"... and indistinguishable from them as well as all other invisible immeasurable entities-- like invisible dragons. Positing a god as the igniter of the big bang is on par with positing an invisible dragon as the igniter of the big bang. The evidence for both is the same.
 
Yes, I agree with almost all of that, articulett, but I think you're responding to a rather different point than the one I was making, and you may even think I'm suggesting a point that I'm certainly not. It was probably misleading of me to describe a mechanical unknown simple cause of big bangs and 'God' as equally rational propositions, but I did so in relation to the philosophical point you seem to be misunderstanding. Let me try to put it as simply as I can in a few ways to make it clear. I am proposing:

The discovery by scientific means of earlier and earlier causes for observable facts can only ever be part of an infinite sequence.

Science cannot discover the primary cause of the universe.

If we discover something that might be the primary cause, the problem is how do we know if it is the primary cause, and, if it isn't, what causes that phenomenon...ad infinitum. To use a valuable form of question in science: "How would we know the primary cause if we discovered it?"

In relation to your suggestion that whatever causes a big bang it will be something simpler than a big bang, that may be true, but simplicity is not equivalent to comprehensively self-emergent, or spontaneously existing, and if the thing discovered isn't that, then it also has a cause. Hence we are on an endless search for earlier and earlier causes. I don't know how I can make the point clearer.

So, it is perhaps not 'equally rational' to propose a creator as to propose that a big bang has a material cause, as I said, and I agree with your reasoning entirely on the God delusion. But both approaches to explaining the universe share a fundamental problem of retrospective causal extrapolation. Whether we take the simplistic, primitive, childish route of invoking God or find real, physical causes of things through rigorous hard work, we can always ask 'What caused x?".

Hence, I say that science can never discover the fundamental cause of reality, and hence I raise the minor objection concerning Dawkins' skyhook/crane analogy, as though we can build a model of the universe up from first principles or fundamental particles whose existence is self evident. To believe that science can ever answer the mystery of how the universe came to exist - in that fundamental sense (we may be able to say that it was seeded out of an earlier one or is part of a multiverse or whatever) - is superstition, just as the short-cut of invoking God is superstition. It seems only to require thinking about it to discover the obvious truth of this point, but I'd be more than happy to be shown the error of my thinking. It would be interesting to know if Dawkins himself recognises this point, since after all I only responded to a short extract from one lecture, and he may have taken it as read. However, I tend to think not. I am familiar with some of his work, and know the general sense of it, and in that same lecture section he suggested that there was no reason why science shouldn't explain - I think he said - 'just about everything'. My sense is that he's happy to ignore the philosophical difference between 'everything' and 'just about everything'.
 
I stopped reading at the bible quotes, so I hope I didn't miss anything good, but I'd like to say that John Freestone's first post and gdnp's first post were fantastic reads.

For anyone "on the fence" about the "existence" of the supernatural because science may one day find evidence of it, I think you should check your definition of "existence." Science will find evidence of something only if it is measurable as matter, energy, or an effect of those two (e.g. dark matter). If science finds it, it's because it has always existed and we just didn't have the means to find it, thus it was never supernatural. If it's supernatural and by definition not measurable, then it never existed nor will it ever exist.

Just trying to put a hand up to help those on the fence come join us fully in reality.
 
It was bugging me about Dawkins, so I watched again and he says: "Natural selection is so stunningly powerful and elegant, it not only explains the whole of life, but raises our consciousness and boosts our confidence in science's future ability to explain [short pause] probably everything else." Slightly worse than I thought. He thinks science will probably explain everything. Now, how on earth could it possibly do that?

Thanks for the appreciation, nexalacer. It's partly because of the above that I find the rational place to be is on the fence, even though I lean heavily to one side or another from time to time. I'm not sure, for instance, of the logic that if something is immeasurable, it doesn't exist. That assumes that human beings (plus our technology) can measure (or rather detect the existence of) everything that exists, which seems a little unlikely, not to mention arrogant. We need only consider a hypothetical situation in which a superintelligent strain of rats develop a certain limited science and technology, whereupon they celebrate their discovery of humanity, pehaps, but yet fail to develop their skills enough to speak human languages, absorb our knowledge, detect x-rays or know that there is a wider cosmos beyond the lab they're in.

To decide that there is definitely no invisible, undetectable reality is as much hubris as to decide that there definitely is and it is the divine cause of everything. The sceptic finds no more rational place to be than on the fence, imho. Of course, I'm more on your side of it than those you're beckonning to, and I think it's part of our human folly that we tend to land somewhere rather than keep doubting...and if there is anything delusional about science, it is nothing compared to gods and ghostly presences, so I'm certainly with you on trying to help people step out of their entrenched position on the woo side of the fence.

I don't want people to be stuck on either side, and I see scientists as entrenched as any religious people. Something Dawkins begins with in that video I'm obsessed with is the false reasoning that if we can not know whether god exists, then it is 50% probable. It may be a meaningless statistic, but demolishing it only helps him entrench himself in the absolute certainty that there isn't a god. I like articulett's position: it's good to say when we don't know something, even if we also say we believe it's ridiculously improbable.
 
AFAIK time, space and causality started with the Big Bang; there is no before (no time), no why (no causality), no from where did it come (no space).
Maybe Big Bang is an bigscale equivalent event as spontanous virtuell particles in empty space. You know this things that lead to Hawking Radiation of Black Holes.
Science doesn't pretend to know, it is really uncertain that this questions could be answered. And saying we don't know if we ever will be able to know this fundamentals is much preferable to pretending to know it all.
Dawkins probable meant details of evolution which are unknown yet. He is no cosmologican.
Or maybe he was simple wrong - big deal he is human.
 
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....

To decide that there is definitely no invisible, undetectable reality is as much hubris as to decide that there definitely is and it is the divine cause of everything....

The problem with this statement lies in fully understanding what the term detectable (measurable) means. People will often mistakenly conflate two different definitions: Practically Measurable -- we have the technological means to perform the measurement; and Potentially Measurable -- something is potentially measurable if it ever has any effect whatsoever on matter or energy.

Science concerns itself with the natural world, which, by definition is everything that is potentially measurable. "Supernatural" entities, if they exist, are potentially immeasurable because they never have any effect in our natural world. To decide that such do not exist is not hubris because there is no possible way that such a decision can ever "come back to haunt us" so to speak. If we're right, so what; we can never know and such entities can never do anything in our world anyway. If we're wrong, ditto. If such entities exist, they can't ever have any effect in our natural world, so they can't cause anything. It's really a meaningless question. There's no fence to sit on. Dawkins confidence is not that science will one day be able to answer this meaningless question, but that it can eventually develop the necessary technology to observe and explain any effect that occurs on matter or energy.
 
And here, often, science gets a little duplicitous, because it likes to avoid the fact that it has such limits - philosophically deeply problematic limits, not just ones of where it has got to in its discoveries - i.e. that it can never explain existence. No scientific description satisfies such a 'why' question. If it were proven exactly how universe after universe expands and collapses into the next, and has done so neverendingly because there is no time outside their existence - in one single perfect mathematical equation - any child could still see that the something-rather-than-nothing question remains. Why would it be so? What would the cause of all that be? I'm mystified as to why some sceptics/scientists either don't see the point or refuse to acknowledge it, or pretend that it doesn't matter.

I personally haven't experienced cosmologists ignoring or avoiding the question of "what preceded" the BB or similar questions. On the contrary, most seem quite willing and candid in admitting that information is not known (and yes, perhaps may never be).
 
I stopped reading at the bible quotes, so I hope I didn't miss anything good, but I'd like to say that John Freestone's first post and gdnp's first post were fantastic reads.

For anyone "on the fence" about the "existence" of the supernatural because science may one day find evidence of it, I think you should check your definition of "existence." Science will find evidence of something only if it is measurable as matter, energy, or an effect of those two (e.g. dark matter). If science finds it, it's because it has always existed and we just didn't have the means to find it, thus it was never supernatural. If it's supernatural and by definition not measurable, then it never existed nor will it ever exist.

Just trying to put a hand up to help those on the fence come join us fully in reality.


Oh! oh! Now you did it. Now you'll have a host of godless die-hards descend on your post to prove just how impossibble your clear, logical and irrefutable conclusions are.
 
The problem with this statement lies in fully understanding what the term detectable (measurable) means. People will often mistakenly conflate two different definitions: Practically Measurable -- we have the technological means to perform the measurement; and Potentially Measurable -- something is potentially measurable if it ever has any effect whatsoever on matter or energy.

Science concerns itself with the natural world, which, by definition is everything that is potentially measurable. "Supernatural" entities, if they exist, are potentially immeasurable because they never have any effect in our natural world. To decide that such do not exist is not hubris because there is no possible way that such a decision can ever "come back to haunt us" so to speak. If we're right, so what; we can never know and such entities can never do anything in our world anyway. If we're wrong, ditto. If such entities exist, they can't ever have any effect in our natural world, so they can't cause anything. It's really a meaningless question. There's no fence to sit on. Dawkins confidence is not that science will one day be able to answer this meaningless question, but that it can eventually develop the necessary technology to observe and explain any effect that occurs on matter or energy.
The distinction of potential and practical measurability is important to make, and I was mixing them up together earlier. However, it seems to hold for both: if I propose something (let's use the example of 'soul') and do experiments to see if it exists, and find no evidence, it may be that:

a) they exist but I have not discovered the means by which souls affect the forms of matter I'm familiar with. This, I imagine, could be said of a great many things we now measure readily after inventing the right bit of kit to do so and/or understanding how it works, what frequency of EM it is, etc.; x-rays comes to mind;

b) they exist but are outside of the potential realm of science, having no effect on energy-matter. This is the category that you seem to suggest we might as well ignore or make an arbitrary decision about, since it makes no pracitcal difference whether we're right or wrong, and which I feel is important to treat with the recognition that we don't know, and which some say means that they never did exist or could exist (defining, I suppose, existence itself upon what is potentially detectable);

c) they do not exist.

It is also humbling, I think, to recognise that practical and potential immeasurability are, to the (non-)observer, utterly indistinguishable, a valid point made by proponents of 'supernatural' phenomena, and one reason why so many scientific hypotheses are ridiculed at first. Most 'supernatural' phenomena are, in fact, proposed as potentially measurable ones - i.e. not literally as outside nature, just outside our current understanding, otherwise they would not be searched for. Their proponents are desperately waiting for hard physical evidence, whereupon they can say "I told you so" and we move into a new era in which science recognises psychokinesis or whatever it is, just as we moved into an era in which mass was proportional to how fast a body is moving.

There are those who propose truly supernatural phenomena, outside potential measurement, but there are also two other important categories, the dualist and mentalist positions, in which mind is another kind of existence alongside matter, and in which mind is all there is, respectively. There is, if you like (I know you won't:D) ...

d) souls exist but are immeasurable by physical instruments, although detectable within the relevant dimension (mental/spiritual); and

e) only souls (or minds) exist and fool themselves into believing in their physical embodiment and perhaps create physical matter as the result of thought, then miss their own reality by staring at a motionless pointer on a soul-dial.

Personally, I think in many cases (including the existence of souls), all the above are philosophically defensible positions, and scientists defend their measurability-measure of reality while others defend more imaginitive ones. I think that philosophy is immensely important and is actually the often ignored basis of science itself. If someone cannot accept that it is just possible that the universe is dual (or purely mental, or sneezed out of the nose of an intergalactic giant, for that matter), then they miss something important. Like Dawkins, I agree that recognising the beautiful power of ETNS is mind-expanding, but not to recognise the limits of the principle of emergence is to miss an even greater mental vista. Building blocks never explain building blocks, only what they built, and the great philosophical question of existence is itself, apparently, practically - and perhaps even potentially - immeasurable. Of course, there's always the response, Big deal, I'm not a cosmologist or I'm not concerned with ontology or Philosophy is rubbish.

To say that existence is defined by what is measurable, or that if anything else exists it doesn't matter anyway seem to me like a failure of the imagination, although I can see that they're both practical positions. I can't help thinking that if it doesn't matter if something invisible exists or not, and we make an arbitrary decision to forget about it, dismiss it, it might turn out that it was potentially measurable (since, as I said, we can't tell the difference). It also seems as arbitrary a position as those who believe in God because they won't be punished if they're wrong, and if they're right, they get to go to heaven.
 
... the importance of making sense and not just taking an ancient book as the repository of truth ...
Ancient? That's irrelevant per se. Are you aware that the writings of Socrates and Aristotle and other prominent still rerspected thinkers were wtritten hundrerds of years befor Christ? In short, your premise is flawed.
Yes, 'ancient' is irrelevant, but that doesn't stop you assuming (or pretending) that it was the pertinent part of my statement, then trying to refute it by listing other, more ancient, texts. The fact that the bible is ancient is a minor point, a passing, irrelevant adjective. The fact that you believe what it says there, yet apparently cannot say why you believe what it says there, was the meat of my criticism, that you believe other people's opinion because it happens to be in the bible, and you have faith that that is the repository of truth. It is a criticism which, like so many, you deftly avoided. It was about this time that you decided my part in the conversation was 'screen clutter', so maybe you're not going to see this.

I have somewhere a book by someone who attempts to destroy scientific arguments and propose spiritual truths, all resting on the absolute facts in the Bhagavad Gita. Neither of you could give a rational defense of your position, since it is based on faith. You believe because you believe. Your dismissal of my point with the contention that my premise is flawed is pathetically ironic. You clearly didn't recognise what my premise was, and you really do not deal in premises at all.
 
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The problem with this statement lies in fully understanding what the term detectable (measurable) means. People will often mistakenly conflate two different definitions: Practically Measurable -- we have the technological means to perform the measurement; and Potentially Measurable -- something is potentially measurable if it ever has any effect whatsoever on matter or energy.

Science concerns itself with the natural world, which, by definition is everything that is potentially measurable. "Supernatural" entities, if they exist, are potentially immeasurable because they never have any effect in our natural world. To decide that such do not exist is not hubris because there is no possible way that such a decision can ever "come back to haunt us" so to speak. If we're right, so what; we can never know and such entities can never do anything in our world anyway. If we're wrong, ditto. If such entities exist, they can't ever have any effect in our natural world, so they can't cause anything. It's really a meaningless question. There's no fence to sit on. Dawkins confidence is not that science will one day be able to answer this meaningless question, but that it can eventually develop the necessary technology to observe and explain any effect that occurs on matter or energy.

Wow, thanks for this. It's something I'm sure I've heard before, but had completely forgotten. Man, now I just felt really sad.... it's so clear, yet we still have to fight all of the woo. There must be some serious psychological damage happening to people all around the world for them to fog such a clear argument.
 
Your dismissal of my point with the contention that my premise is flawed is pathetically ironic. You clearly didn't recognise what my premise was, and you really do not deal in premises at all.

Bolding mine.

Indeed, this forum is teeming with irony. Interestingly (though not surprisingly), those who perpetuate it tend to hold beliefs over science/facts.
 
Bolding mine.

Indeed, this forum is teeming with irony. Interestingly (though not surprisingly), those who perpetuate it tend to hold beliefs over science/facts.

Those with the strongest, most inflexible opinions seem always to be those with the least information.
 
I am also on the fence. There's a lot of stuff that we Don't Know. But, I've fashioned a theory about souls and perhaps someone else here can add to it and refine it? (Apologies in advance for my layman's terms - I'm not a biophysics major. :) )

Our mental and physical processes operate by the cells communicating with each other using bioelectricity. When the body dies, the functions stop and the electricity needs to go somewhere. So, it dissipates into the immediate surroundings, sometimes intermingling with the energies of other people, objects, animals, anything where there's an unstable atom needing a free radical (reincarnating).

There may not have been a "first soul" in this case because it's the same energy that has always been in the universe. It just happened to be in your body for a little while and then when you die, it moves on. So in the sense of reincarnation, one being doesn't get reborn into another being. One can be "reborn" into a plethora of new beings or objects. Where going to heaven or hell are concerned, I think that isn't so much about where the soul ends up as much as what legacy you leave behind.
 
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I am also on the fence. There's a lot of stuff that we Don't Know. But, I've fashioned a theory about souls and perhaps someone else here can add to it and refine it? (Apologies in advance for my layman's terms - I'm not a biophysics major. :) )

Our mental and physical processes operate by the cells communicating with each other using bioelectricity. When the body dies, the functions stop and the electricity needs to go somewhere. So, it dissipates into the immediate surroundings, sometimes intermingling with the energies of other people, objects, animals, anything where there's an unstable atom needing a free radical (reincarnating).

There may not have been a "first soul" in this case because it's the same energy that has always been in the universe. It just happened to be in your body for a little while and then when you die, it moves on. So in the sense of reincarnation, one being doesn't get reborn into another being. One can be "reborn" into a plethora of new beings or objects. Where going to heaven or hell are concerned, I think that isn't so much about where the soul ends up as much as what legacy you leave behind.
I like these ideas, Michelle, but I think your first proposition is rather weak - as far as it tries to link 'soul' with 'bio-electricity'. I'm not a science major either, but imagine that whatever electricity is active in the living brain, at death it would: a) not be of sufficient strength to "need somewhere to go" (like a charged capacitor or lightning bolt!) or enter other organisms; b) not retain any significance, meaning, information, data, etc., as it dissipates into the environment, assuming even that it does do so. Clearly energy in systems does dissipate in some circumstances, and organised energy like radio waves dissipate and retain their organisational features, but the idea that human thought, consciousness or personality might leak outward at death doesn't have any basis either in evidence-terms or theoretically, AFAIK. I think you are thinking of it more subtly, but these ideas could encourage soul-believers that there might be some scientific sense behind this, something that rescues the idea of souls from the area of superstition. It would be similar to saying that when you switch off your computer, its current electrical state dissipates: perhaps an electron here or there does, but we can't tune in to the pictures you were looking at on your photo editing software...nor do other computers booting up at the time get loaded with operating systems floating about in the ether! :)

The bit I like is the reminder that there is a lot of human stuff being communicated between us and recorded and mediated through libraries and the internet, a whole other world of "the humanities" and arts, and that in a purely human sense, things could be said to have a kind of 'soul' or 'essence'. What is a piece of art, music or literature? Romeo and Juliet, for instance, could be thought of as the exact form of words Shakespeare wrote, but why is it different from the physical original copy, and how can it be recognised when 'reincarnated' in a hundred different forms? Is it still the same play if we change just one word? This is where things get fuzzy and non-physical entities or ideas can take on the appearance of absoluteness and concreteness - in the area of information. And then, when we consider that what makes life life is a certain informational quality (and some would even say what makes physical objects what they are is also information), we can form some non-woo concept of 'spirit' or 'soul' I think. Also, it is because such human concepts are so precious to us and form the bedrock of most human cultures that the pure physicalism of the scientific viewpoint is feared, resisted and rejected by so many people in the modern day. We are 'soulless': Romeo and Juliet is just a bunch of data, an informational structure, and so is Windows XP.
 
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It took me almost 5 hours to read and try to understand everything all of you said/wrote. I am deeply impressed by- and grateful for- the postings and insights of John Freestone; and I am also grateful to Perpetual Seeker, articulett, Prometheus, FosterZygote, silentknight, billydkid, and others who wrestled with the original post question(s) and who showed such patience and perseverence when confronted by those 2 JWs.
I have posted some silly soap box rants before and been justifiably chastised for them, and I promise to not repeat such foolishness!
Learning from reading and 'listening' to you all is my great pleasure, almost daily. THANK YOU! M.
 

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