Does the "Road map" lead to Peace?

"There is nothing on this issue that you can tell that I haven’t already heard I have studied every aspect of the conflict."

I`ve heard every kind of Israeli apologist too. Unluckily they have the ear of the deluded establishment.
So long as you think it`s ok to steal people`s land, use collective punishment as a day to day policy and ignore over 60 UN resolutions then the least you can do in return is quit whinning when people get pissed off and fight back.
 
demon said:

I`ve heard every kind of Israeli apologist too. Unluckily they have the ear of the deluded establishment.
So long as you think it`s ok to steal people`s land, use collective punishment as a day to day policy and ignore over 60 UN resolutions then the least you can do in return is quit whinning when people get pissed off and fight back.


You mean fight back the almost daily bombings of bus's and markets by Suicide bombers.
I have heard all of the Arab myths.
About 75% of Palestine's support Bin laden lets not forget the cheering Palestine's after 9/11
You would think there was no call to destroy Israel by your remarks this is a clip from Palestine TV telling their children to grow up and be suicide bombers.
http://www.campustruth.org/content/...ews.com/data/asx/2002/06/29/asx_210_broad.asx
 
"You mean fight back the almost daily bombings of bus's and markets by Suicide bombers."

You know this is a fabrication unlike the "daily" subjection of the Palestinians to a degrading and humiliating way of life. Deny this and we really can`t continue on any rational basis.
The whole world sees it and if the USA disappeared overnight then Israel would pay for it.


"About 75% of Palestine's support Bin laden"

Your precious country supported him too...why is is bad at one time and not at another? Your seemingly admirable principles are somewhat of a moveable feast eh? No worries.
As I`ve said, I`ve encountered every kind of apologist that walks or indeed crawls upon this earth.

"lets not forget the cheering Palestine's after 9/11"

Oh the famous out of context film? Catch yourself on Baker, it`s me you are talking to. I happen to get my information from other sources than Fox and CNN.

Your ludicrous slur againt Palstinian children is pitifull. Of course, Israel teaches the Nakba? The frequent massacres their present "man of peace" prime minister presided over?
 
demon said:


You know this is a fabrication unlike the "daily" subjection of the Palestinians to a degrading and humiliating way of life. Deny this and we really can`t continue on any rational basis.
The whole world sees it and if the USA disappeared overnight then Israel would pay for it.

Your only source for your information comes from the Arabs who support the worst terrorist in history who also openly admit the destruction of Israel.


Your precious country supported him too...why is is bad at one time and not at another? Your seemingly admirable principles are somewhat of a moveable feast eh? No worries.
As I`ve said, I`ve encountered every kind of apologist that walks or indeed crawls upon this earth.

Can you provide any evidence to back up this claim?

Oh the famous out of context film? Catch yourself on Baker, it`s me you are talking to. I happen to get my information from other sources than Fox and CNN.

Wrong once again

http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm

" No, CNN did not air decade-old footage of Palestinians dancing in the streets. Eason Jordan, CNN's Chief News Executive, confirmed that the video used on CNN was in fact shot on Tuesday, 11 September 2001, in East Jerusalem by a Reuters TV crew, not during the Persian Gulf conflict of 1990-91 -- a fact proved by its inclusion of comments from a Palestinian praising Osama Bin Laden (whose name was unlikely to have come up ten years earlier in connection with the invasion and liberation of Kuwait) as well as the appearance in the video of post-1991 automobiles. The person who made the claim quoted above has since recanted.

Your ludicrous slur againt Palstinian children is pitifull. Of course, Israel teaches the Nakba? The frequent massacres their present "man of peace" prime minister presided over?

Could you explain what the Nakba is?
 
demon said:
"Your ludicrous slur againt Palstinian children is pitifull. Of course, Israel teaches the Nakba? The frequent massacres their present "man of peace" prime minister presided over?

As shown in another thread.

This is a link to the direct translation of the New Palestinian Textbooks if anyone can dispute this please do however MEMRI has an untarnished reputation of their translations.

http://memri.org/book/MEMRI_Book_PGS.pdf
Pages of important interest.
page 14
page 20
page 28
page 43
page 64
 
CapelDodger said:
I call it as I see it. I assemble evidence, evaluate it and consider it's implications unemotionally. The mental construct I have of Sharon is far more complicated than yours. He may have peasant habits but that doesn't mean he isn't a clever and complex politician.

No. I won't defend Sharon, in fact, I don't need to defend Israel's PM either, although he is elected. It's important to me to be consistent when approaching the issue so, I will repeat that we must see things in their historical context. Sharon was what Israel needed back then. Whether people like it or not, countries are not built by holding the Cross to the right hand and the Gospel to the other. Israel's boarders are the result and not the cause of the war.

The Arab-israeli conflict started before WW I when the national states of Europe refused to nest the Jews within their borders and this is a fact.

If he could he'd just truck all the Palestinians into Jordan and Egypt and build a wall around Greater Israel.
This is not a valid argument Capel Dodger. It doesn't mean anything to me since the opposite side wants exactly the same for the Israelis.

The settlers wouldn't mind, of course, "sacrifice" is a big number for them and materialism isn't, but a lot of other people would be unhappy.

This was mean. Do you think that it's a matter of materialism(sic)? You know, Brits are not the only people on the earth who have a national pride... Israelis have such a pride too.
It's entirely up to Sharon whether he responds to violence from Hamas. The aim of Hamas is to de-rail the peace-process.
No it's not up to Sharon, because a government is elected to protect its citizens, it can't stay numb , watching its citizens dying in the buses, in the markets, in the bars...
BUT as a pacifist myself I think that we must not respond to violence... of course I have been proven an idiot by the facts many times...
They do not represent even a majority of the Palestinians.
Who do you think that represents this majority
An even worse case would involve a split within the Israeli security forces. That could lead to a state of emergency and a military government. Which might well meet strong resistance, and of course the army is mostly reservist. There could be chaos, street fighting, monstrous gangsterism, massacres. Looting of nuclear weapons.

Sorry but these are not serious things. You seem to ignore, when it's convenient to you, the human factor and idealism. Why? Israelis are not a bunch of... vagabonds!
The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial.

I dissagree but I guess that we have to wait to see that.

Tell me something else, if you wish. Why people who live so far away from Israel are so passionate with the whole issue. Do you think that I was right when I said that in Middle east two groups of people have taken up the responsibility to clear the "old debts" of humanity?
 
From Baker:
Did you miss my link show that the majority of Arab’s wish for the destruction of Israel and how they admire bin Laden even over their own leaders including Palestinian? The same question goes to CapelDodger who so far has ignored the question.
I hadn't even noticed it. The answer, fo what it's worth, is yes, I did miss the link. I really can't imagine why looking for links provided by you would ever be a priority for me.

A question for you: if your figures and popularity ratings were true (and they may well be), what do you think it would signify?

From demon:
Incidently, why look foward to Cape Dodger`s reply? I`m sure you could write it yourself.
That statement might be actionable. I have a more extensive word-font for a start, not to mention a different understanding of grammer and spelling.

from Baker:
This is a link to the direct translation of the New Palestinian Textbooks if anyone can dispute this please do however MEMRI has an untarnished reputation of their translations.
Untarnished meaning you've never actually caught them out yourself? Your interpretation of the original Arabic and theirs has never diverged?
Does anybody else out there know much about this MEMRI entity?
 
CapelDodger said:
A question for you: if your figures and popularity ratings were true (and they may well be), what do you think it would signify

It would signify that you are wrong when you are claiming that Hamas doesn't represent the majority of the Palestinians.
 
CapelDodger said:
I hadn't even noticed it. The answer, fo what it's worth, is yes, I did miss the link. I really can't imagine why looking for links provided by you would ever be a priority for me.

A question for you: if your figures and popularity ratings were true (and they may well be), what do you think it would signify?


It shows a very negative trend the rise of fundamentalism in the Islamic world.


That statement might be actionable. I have a more extensive word-font for a start, not to mention a different understanding of grammer and spelling.


I'm not doing a book report just replying to messages I don't rely on lectures to make my point just the facts.



Untarnished meaning you've never actually caught them out yourself? Your interpretation of the original Arabic and theirs has never diverged?
Does anybody else out there know much about this MEMRI entity?


MEMRI uses exact translations meaning no one has disputed the claim you are welcome to do your own research.
 
From Baker:
I'm not doing a book report just replying to messages I don't rely on lectures to make my point just the facts.
Writing coherently and making a point unambiguously are ends in themselves. Woolly speaking is good evidence of woolly thinking. Book reports (if they're like essays) are not just an artificial hurdle, producing them is supposed to teach you something.
MEMRI uses exact translations meaning no one has disputed the claim you are welcome to do your own research.
I realise that, but the scenario that goes "somebody else does it for me" sells to me better.
 
Baker, another apologist quote as always:
"Oh so you wouldn’t think there where weapons being hidden in the homes or bomb factories
And How dare the Israelis try to counter women and children being blown up on a bus or market."


By Amira Hass - Haaretz June 8, 2003
BEIT HANUN, Gaza - Ahmed Za'anin's house now looks like some 1,200 other Palestinian homes: a pile of rubble. On May 18, at about 7 P.M., IDF bulldozers knocked down four houses, one partially, which belonged to the extended Za'anin family, in Ezbat Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip.

Usually, the IDF Spokesman's Office reports why a house was demolished: It was the family
of an arrested terrorist, a wanted terrorist, a dead terrorist, the house was used to shoot at soldiers, the neighborhood sheltered armed
men or tunnels, the house was built without a permit.


But this time, the IDF Spokesman's Office had no
records of the demolition of the four houses, so
it did not have any explanation for why the
Za'anin homes were destroyed. "We don't demolish
houses for no reason. Maybe there was shooting
there, maybe there was involvement in terrorist
activities," Haaretz was told. But the fact
remains: The same force that sent a bulldozer or
two and, as the homeowners watched, demolished
their homes, did not find it necessary to report
the action to the IDF Spokesman's Office.

To the same extent, there was no record of the
Za'anin family having heard a nearby explosion,
in a street controlled by tanks and armored
personnel carriers, at around 6 P.M. that day.
About 20 minutes later the family, which was
sitting in the living room, heard the noise of
the churning bulldozers.

"Suddenly we saw Jews in the house," said Amana
Za'anin. An officer and soldiers entered through
a breach they opened in the wall of the house.
They aimed their weapons at the family, and
ordered them out. According to the family, they
were not allowed to take anything with them. Not
even the mother's head covering. The student
daughter cried she didn't want to leave without
her books and notebooks. Her parents said that
they had to drag her away from "under the
bulldozer."

Yesterday, the IDF Spokesman's Office said "On May 18, there was an explosion caused by a jeep
hitting a land mine. Anti-tank rockets were fired
at the forces and then the unit shaved away the
remains of a building that was already
demolished, and was uninhabited." The seemingly
updated information was far from the truth that
was evident to the naked eye on the scene.

Is one supposed to deduce that the decision to
demolish the building was made on the spot, and
by the force, as an immediate reaction to the
explosion and the anti-tank fire, and the IDF
Spokesman's Office knew nothing of that? Israeli
society, including the High Court of Justice,
accepts the demolition of Palestinian homes as
just, and therefore self-evident. It's a short
step from there to the fact that three-and-a-half
houses were destroyed by the army without the IDF
Spokesman's Office, the first address for such
information, knowing anything about it. Is that
why the demolition unit was confident of its
actions and of not reporting them?

Ezbat Beit Hanun is the western neighborhood of
Beit Hanun, where the IDF has been operating
since May 15, to prevent the firing of Qassam
rockets at Sderot. In the first days of the
operation, 10 rockets were fired from the Beit
Hanun area, six in the direction of Sderot. In
the last 10 days, the rocket fire has ceased.

The Za'anin houses were built beside the main road
in Gaza - Salah a -Din - which passes between the
neighborhood and the city center. One of the
buildings was still under construction. According
to the Za'anin family, during the demolition, a
goat shed was destroyed; some of the goats were
crushed under the heavy machinery. Storehouses
were demolished as well as some farm equipment,
including a tractor. A well-preserved 1960
Mercedes was destroyed, as were beehives that
were dragged and crushed, now scattered among the
rubble. More than 50 people lived in the four
houses, and now they are crowded in with
relatives and neighbors. They cannot cross the
street - not even the oldest among them - to
reach the city. The tanks prevent that passage.

Five Palestinians were killed by IDF fire on the
first day of the Beit Hanun operation. Two armed
men were killed when they tried shooting at the
tanks. They were killed outside the city. Two
youths, aged 15 and 16, who threw rocks, were
killed inside the city. And 14-year-old Mohammed
Za'anin was killed. He and his family didn't know
that an IDF force had taken up a position in the
next-door house. At the end of the first day of
the IDF takeover, the Za'anin family went up to a
little bridge that connects two parts of their
compound, to see what was going on around them.
Mohammed, the son, was killed - shot in the head.
On May 18, another boy, also 14, from the Jabalya
refugee camp was killed. He apparently was one of
those who threw stones at the tanks that besieged
the city.

Children climb the ramparts beside the tanks. Some
fly kites, others try a kind of Russian slingshot
roulette: When will the tank fire back at their
rock-throwing? Thus, in the first days of the
operation, between 10-20 children were wounded
every day, for throwing rocks at tanks and APCs.
On June 3, a Palestinian policeman was killed 400
meters west of Salah a-Din Street. A bullet hit
him in the head as he stood at his post. His job
was to prevent armed Palestinians from
approaching Israeli positions.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Worth repeating:
Usually, the IDF Spokesman's Office reports why a house was demolished: It was the family of an arrested terrorist, a wanted terrorist, a dead terrorist, the house was used to shoot at soldiers, the neighborhood sheltered armed men or tunnels, the house was built without a permit.

yeah right.


Denise: Here is a link to the full article http://vancouver.indymedia.org/news/2003/06/51391.php
 
Cleopatra:
It would signify that you are wrong when you are claiming that Hamas doesn't represent the majority of the Palestinians.
I think that's a very wide interpretation. Opinion polls that are done - and they are, and hats off to the people that do the stats - amongst Palestinians give a 40-50% "we don't think Hamas are crazies but ..." rating. I have respect for the people that are doing these surveys. When it comes to Palestinians who would claim primary allegiance to Hamas, not the PA, there are results in the 20-30% range, mostly in Gaza but not even a majority there. And if it came to a civil war, that support would fall away to a core of maybe 10%? Probably less. Hamas - a minority - could be cast in the role of dupes, those who destroyed Palestinian solidarity by their own intransigence, to the benefit only of their enemies.

Today's attack has interesting implications. It was remarkably successful. (That'll bring me grief: attack, success, achievement of objective, there's no value-judgement implied.) It has been claimed jointly by Hamas, Islamic Jihad and al-Aqsa (as of CNN reports not long ago). And it took place outside Israel against a military target. This could be the basis of a cease-fire declaration by all three organisations. Which would stir things up a bit. It would have to happen very quickly to work.

The best prospect for Hamas (the main player) is to tell its people to bury their guns and work strictly politically, maintaining their support and building more if the peace process fails to deliver. Once the guns are buried they will not be brought out again until some incident triggers the order. The main political objective then becomes ensuring that incident never happens. Not an easy business when there are extremists on both sides, but a majority of Palestinians and a majority of Israelis should be able to achieve it. It has worked in Ireland.

The recent history of Macedonia should be an inspiration, although I don't suppose it will be. There you had people on both sides that longed for conflict, and pressed all the usually-effective buttons, but the majority refused to buy into it. The Macedonians had the example of what had happened in the rest of Yugoslavia, but then the Palestinians have had the experience right on their doorstep. There has to be a majority for peace and a normal life.
 
CapelDodger said:
From Baker:

Writing coherently and making a point unambiguously are ends in themselves. Woolly speaking is good evidence of woolly thinking. Book reports (if they're like essays) are not just an artificial hurdle, producing them is supposed to teach you something.

You’re over emphasizing this extensive word-font of yours.
Woolly speaking is good evidence of woolly thinking. :rolleyes:
All this time I have been trying to use facts and evidence when all I needed was just to speak more woolly.

I realise that, but the scenario that goes "somebody else does it for me" sells to me better.

Can you show me where I claimed to personally do the translations?
Are you familiar with the fallacy Poisoning the Well?
 
All this time I have been trying to use facts and evidence when all I needed was just to speak more woolly.
It's like giving a baby a razor-blade to play with.

Anyway, it seems that Sharon has looked into the abyss of peace and didn't like what he saw. (This assumes he's actually in control of events, which is probably the case.) The rate of demolitions seems to have increased in the last few weeks - it's hard to be sure, of course, since observers aren't welcome. In fact, are liable to get shot. Assassinations continue during cease-fire discussions. And now the good old favourite: rockets fired into a city street. At least the White House seems to have protested strongly, although Fleischer is trying to row back from that. The names of Rice and Powell are prominent, which is a good sign - the State Department bunch getting ahead of the Pentagon bunch, perhaps. The best we can hope for is that the response is targeted at the Israeli military.
 
CapelDodger said:

It's like giving a baby a razor-blade to play with.

Anyway, it seems that Sharon has looked into the abyss of peace and didn't like what he saw. (This assumes he's actually in control of events, which is probably the case.) The rate of demolitions seems to have increased in the last few weeks - it's hard to be sure, of course, since observers aren't welcome. In fact, are liable to get shot. Assassinations continue during cease-fire discussions. And now the good old favourite: rockets fired into a city street. At least the White House seems to have protested strongly, although Fleischer is trying to row back from that. The names of Rice and Powell are prominent, which is a good sign - the State Department bunch getting ahead of the Pentagon bunch, perhaps. The best we can hope for is that the response is targeted at the Israeli military.

Hamas set their fate when they refused to lay down their arms.
Israel was targeting a Hamas political leader the same terrorist that vowed to continue terrorist attacks on Israel civilians so I don’t blame Israel on this one.
I haven’t been able to find any stories on any demolitions including demon’s article the story he posted wasn’t in haaretz archives for June 8.
If you have a link to the article Demon please post it.
 
demon said:
Baker, another apologist quote as always:
"Oh so you wouldn’t think there where weapons being hidden in the homes or bomb factories
And How dare the Israelis try to counter women and children being blown up on a bus or market."


By Amira Hass - Haaretz June 8, 2003
BEIT HANUN, Gaza - Ahmed Za'anin's house now looks like some 1,200 other Palestinian homes: a pile of rubble. On May 18, at about 7 P.M., IDF bulldozers knocked down four houses, one partially, which belonged to the extended Za'anin family, in Ezbat Beit Hanun in the northern Gaza Strip.

...


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Worth repeating:
Usually, the IDF Spokesman's Office reports why a house was demolished: It was the family of an arrested terrorist, a wanted terrorist, a dead terrorist, the house was used to shoot at soldiers, the neighborhood sheltered armed men or tunnels, the house was built without a permit.

yeah right.

This is exactly what I have been talking about right from the start, and part of the reason for the picture I put up. Ordinary civilians are being punished and coralled day by day. The Israelis know exactly what is going on, they are creating ghettos of misery and desperation.

Note how the inhabitants are removed. No deaths, no headlines. But a remorseless process of invasion continues.
 
Demon, I tried to pm you but your box was full. We can't put entire articles up, just portions. I snipped the last paragraph from the article and provided a link. It's always nice to provide a link for people anyhow. Thanks!
 
a_unique_person said:


This is exactly what I have been talking about right from the start, and part of the reason for the picture I put up. Ordinary civilians are being punished and coralled day by day. The Israelis know exactly what is going on, they are creating ghettos of misery and desperation.

Note how the inhabitants are removed. No deaths, no headlines. But a remorseless process of invasion continues.

Well then, perhaps you can provide a link to the story looking through their archives for June 8th doesn't show the article he posted.

In fact, these are the only articles posted for that day.


Sunday, June 08, 2003 Sivan 8, 5763
News


U.S. observers due, as Abbas talks with Hamas leadership


By Aluf Benn, Arnon Regular and Nadav Shragai

A U.S. team, under the leadership of envoy John Wolf, is expected to arrive in the area today or tomorrow to begin observing the implementation of the road map by both the Palestinian Authority and Israel.


Bush's determination surprised Israel


By Aluf Benn

U.S. President George W. Bush's resolve to move the Israeli-Palestinian peace process forward surprised many Israelis, who believed that the current administration in Washington fears stepping into the Middle East quagmire and will make do with diplomatic lip service only.


Analysis / Sharon to face the music at Likud meet


By Yossi Verter

In his heart of hearts, perhaps Ariel Sharon would like to get onto the podium in the Binyanei Ha'uma congress hall today, look the delegates in the eye, hush them with a characteristic wave of his arm and demand: "Who is for ending the occupation? Lift your hand!"


Iran denies claims it failed to safeguard nuclear material


The Associated Press

Iran has not breached any nuclear nonproliferation protocols and was unperturbed by U.S. claims to the contrary, an Atomic Energy Organization of Iran spokesman said yesterday.


Meir Vilner dies at 84


By Joseph Algazy

Meir Vilner, the last living signatory of Israel's Declaration of Independence, died Thursday morning at the age of 84. Vilner served as leader of the Israeli Communist Party (and subsequently Hadash) and was its representative in the Knesset for some 40 years.


Inner strength and special skill


By Ruth Sinai

Zion Guhari's suitcase is ready, and so is his carry-on - both in the corner of his room in his parents' Nahariya apartment. Over the bags is a shelf full of medals and cups that he has won in various table tennis competitions, including a silver and a bronze from an Olympiad four years ago.


Two killed near Jerusalem believed to be terror victims


By Jonathan Lis

The Jerusalem Police increasingly attribute the murder of the two Israelis found stabbed to death last Thursday in a wood close to Moshav Even Sapir to a terror attack.


Mofaz, Yesha Council to meet


Haaretz Staff

Defense Minister Shaul Mofaz will meet in the coming days with the leaders of the Yesha Council of Jewish Settlements of Judea, Samaria and the Gaza District in an effort to persuade them to voluntarily evacuate the 12 illegal outposts that Prime Minister Ariel Sharon undertook to dismantle at the Aqaba summit.


Histadrut rallies to protest pension cutbacks
http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/p...assID=1&sbSubContrassID=0&daysBack=08/06/2003
 

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