Does the "Road map" lead to Peace?

a_unique_person said:


Not trying to give you a hard time, Cleopatra, but I have already interpreted Sharon's intentions as installing a Palestinian 'City Council', rather than a real nation. It will presumably have the fence around it, and the people will be clustered in the existing cities, while Isreaeli settlements continue to be built in the areas excised from the West Bank and Gaza. The Israeli army will then pull out, to outside the wall.
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Ok. Let's take this assumption for granted- who can trust dear Ariel BTW... and see if it's a possibility.

If Sharon thinks that Palestinians will ever accept autonomy instead of independance he must be an idiot...

Palestinians will never accept this and when I say accept, I mean that they are determined to climax the violence if Israelis don't proceed to the complete withdrawal of the Occupied Territories.

Also, I happen to appreciate very much Abu Mazen. I consider him a true patriot and I am persuaded that he would never betray his compatriots by accepting autonomy instead of independance.

Not to forget that President Bush is not only interested in the Jewish part, he needs the Arabs as well.

In any case. Unique this might sound strange but in Israel there are numerous people who don't enjoy the situation and wish that Palestinians have a state of their own and the more important thing is that they won't compromise with the idea of concentration camp within the boarders of the country.
 
Cleopatra said:


Ok. Let's take this assumption for granted- who can trust dear Ariel BTW... and see if it's a possibility.

If Sharon thinks that Palestinians will ever accept autonomy instead of independance he must be an idiot...

Palestinians will never accept this and when I say accept, I mean that they are determined to climax the violence if Israelis don't proceed to the complete withdrawal of the Occupied Territories.

Also, I happen to appreciate very much Abu Mazen. I consider him a true patriot and I am persuaded that he would never betray his compatriots by accepting autonomy instead of independance.

Not to forget that President Bush is not only interested in the Jewish part, he needs the Arabs as well.

In any case. Unique this might sound strange but in Israel there are numerous people who don't enjoy the situation and wish that Palestinians have a state of their own and the more important thing is that they won't compromise with the idea of concentration camp within the boarders of the country.
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]

I have never doubted that there are plenty of Israeli's who want the Palestinians to have their own state, in fact, I think a majority want that. So why is the will of the majority not being expressed?

I read about Abu Mazen the other day, about how the author of the opion piece believed that he would be able to deliver nothing, despite his best intentions, because, as he is caught between the extremists on both sides, he has no authority to make a promise that can be kept.
 
Curiouser and curiouser.

This might actually be going somewhere. George II seems to think there's something that can be achieved here that will still be looking good in a year's time. Sharon may be in a vice, or he may - like Israeli leaders before him - be giving way in the direction that the "shock of the real" has pointed him. And Sharon himself may be appreciating that being the man who ushered in an era of peace and viability to the Holy Land after a pathologically murderous career that spans the whole modern Zionist experience ... He's going to get the biggest statue, and the Moon-base named after him. And he can pull it off if he can take the military with him; he'll surely have the political clout.

Best case scenario, of course, is a low-key four-way civil war. (The alternative being, of course, an intense four-way civil war.) The moderate parties on both sides can co-operate and the majority - who want a quiet life - will flock to them. The lunatics will be neutored and efforts will be made to address the needs of several traumatised generations of people (on both sides). Yahweh and Allah get back in their boxes and lions, lambs, all that stuff.

There are other scenarios, but why dwell on them? Except where a wager is involved, of course.

An intriguing question is what the reaction of the fundamentalist Christian Zionists of the US will be if Jews just go over there to lounge around and avoid self-immolation. There's supposed to be an Armageddon booked for real soon now. Maybe they'll start agitating for the Jews to be made to go to Israel?
 
Looking at the current history of the PA it doesn’t look like a push for peace what will they do with all of these brain washed kids.


“Ask for death” is the message that the Palestinian Authority [PA] has been conveying to its children since the start of violence in October 2000. In June 2002, two articulate 11-year-old girls were interviewed in the studio of official Palestinian Authority TV. Among other topics, they spoke of their personal yearning to achieve death through Shahada – Death for Allah – and of a similar desire they said exists in “every Palestinian child.” It is striking that their desire for death was expressed as a personal goal, not related to the conflict with Israel. Having been convinced that dying for Allah is preferable to life, their goal in living is not to experience a good life, but to achieve the proper death – Shahada.

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/reports/Indoctrination_of_Palestinian_Children.asp
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WARNING Photo of dead child below.









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a_unique_person said:


honestreporting? I can find pleny of Israeli freaks too, so what? Is this a freak show?
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Heres one child who didn't grow up to suicide.

http://www.jmcc.org/images/crimes/hebbaby.jpg

Crimes committed by Israeli Army and Jewish Settlers
Settlers kill a 3 months-old baby from Ithna village in Hebron



Terrorist settlers committed on July 19, 2001 another barbaric crime against a family from Ithna village in Hebron district; the settlers killed in cold blood three members of one family, including a 3 month-old baby, and injured four others, including a six-month old baby, and a woman who suffers serious injuries. The three martyrs of the crime that was committed at the entrance of Ithna village and 200meters away from the occupation checkpoint are: Mohammed Salameh Tmeizi, 23, Mohammed Hilmi Tmeizi, 22 and baby Dia' Marwan Tmeizi. A terrorist group of settlers calling itself "Committee of Security on the Roads" claimed responsibility for the crime that was committed at 9:00 pm while the family consisting of seven members were returning from a visit to relatives and before they arrived the entrance of the village, a white car with settlers inside opened fire at the car and then escaped towards the occupation checkpoint near Tarqoumia village. Eyewitnesses said the crime was committed under direct and public protection from the occupation army. The victims were transferred to Ahli Hospital in Hebron; four other Palestinians from the same family were also injured in the crime. One of the martyrs, Mohammed, got married recently while his bride received serious injuries.
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a_unique_person said:
WARNING Photo of dead child below.









.



Heres one child who didn't grow up to suicide.
/B]
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Another shock photo propaganda pic
AUP you don’t use terrorist as a source of your information you didn’t even provide a link to your article.


Edit to remove image sorry I was just leaving for work when I responded to AUP post and forgot about removing the image from his quote
 
Capel Dodger you are soooo biased towards Israel ... but this is your right I guess.

I think that Sharon is not interested in being recorded as the man who brought Peace to the area. He doesn't care about those things... he belongs to a different world where people are dressed in uniforms and they spend their lives holding a gun...

If the Americans didn't put so much pressure on him, he would reject the Road Map within 5 minutes.

I suspect that he counts on the other side's endless aggression and hatred... He expects them to start the violence again and so as he responds in kind...

You seem to be so sure about Israelis but you don't know the Arabs, CD

Have a look here. Hamas couldn't wait even for 24 hours...

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...030606/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_707

So, I have a worse scenario than yours. Hamas will start the usual and Israel will decide to deal with them for good this time,ignoring pacifists,international public opinion etc. Of course, we will have an outbreak of extreme violence from both sides and the end will be hard to predict.

As long as suicide bombers explode in Jesusalem only, Israel is safe though...
 
Here is some disturbing facts to add.

As for the crisis in the Middle East, in a wave of sentiment that bodes ill
for the future of the U.S.-sponsored "road map" to peace, Muslims lined up
strongly behind the opinion that "the rights and needs of the Palestinian
people cannot be taken care of as long as the state of Israel exists."
.
The conviction that no way can be found for Israel and the Palestinians to
coexist is strongest in Morocco (90 percent), followed by Jordan (85
percent), the Palestinian Authority (80 percent), Kuwait (72 percent),
Lebanon (65 percent), Indonesia (58 percent) and Pakistan (57 percent).


Perhaps as a consequence, bin Laden was one of the three "leaders" most
trusted by the nine Muslim populations surveyed, outranking even the UN
secretary-general, Kofi Annan. The Qaeda leader's confidence rating was
matched only by Yasser Arafat, leader of the Palestine Liberation
Organization, and Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia.
http://www.iht.com/articles/98399.html
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Cleopatra:
Capel Dodger you are soooo biased towards Israel ... but this is your right I guess.
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I call it as I see it. I assemble evidence, evaluate it and consider it's implications unemotionally. The mental construct I have of Sharon is far more complicated than yours. He may have peasant habits but that doesn't mean he isn't a clever and complex politician. He's also an egotist and ambitious. As an army officer he was relieved of his command because the civilian body-count he trailed behind him was simply too embarrassing. As Defence Minister he invaded Lebanon without reference to his Prime Minister. He was found responsible for Sabra and Chatila. And now he's Prime Minister. He's worked his magic on the army, Likud and the general population. If he makes peace now he will be the Great Man of Israel's history. If he fails he could end up just another mark on the time-line of conflict.

If the Americans didn't put so much pressure on him, he would reject the Road Map within 5 minutes.
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If he could he'd just truck all the Palestinians into Jordan and Egypt and build a wall around Greater Israel. He can't do that because even the US would turn its back on him and Israel would be left to its own devices. Israel might well be able to survive cut off from the world, but not nearly as comfortably as now. The settlers wouldn't mind, of course, "sacrifice" is a big number for them and materialism isn't, but a lot of other people would be unhappy.

I suspect that he counts on the other side's endless aggression and hatred... He expects them to start the violence again and so as he responds in kind...
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It's entirely up to Sharon whether he responds to violence from Hamas. The aim of Hamas is to de-rail the peace-process. They do not represent even a majority of the Palestinians. Allowing their attacks to stop the process is a deliberate decision, and the only motive for that decision is stopping the process. But at the moment, while Hamas has been in negotiations over a cease-fire, the Israeli army keeps attacking Hamas. Why not give it a rest for a week or two? Why provide funerals for the benefit of the rejectionists? On the bright side, Sharon has said that what he requires is 100% effort from the PA, not absolute success in stopping attacks. That gives him options as and when the next bomb goes off.

So, I have a worse scenario than yours. Hamas will start the usual and Israel will decide to deal with them for good this time,ignoring pacifists,international public opinion etc. Of course, we will have an outbreak of extreme violence from both sides and the end will be hard to predict.
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An even worse case would involve a split within the Israeli security forces. That could lead to a state of emergency and a military government. Which might well meet strong resistance, and of course the army is mostly reservist. There could be chaos, street fighting, monstrous gangsterism, massacres. Looting of nuclear weapons.

But that's groping towards the worst case, of course, and I'm good at that. The main point to watch, I think, is the attitude of the military, particularly who says what amongst the high-command and the heroes. The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial.
 
"The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial".

Ah yes, sadly somethings never change. Actions by the Palestinians are always immaterial.
The actions of the IDF and Settlers? Just substitute those groups with the US admin here. They are the same animal; that`s where they get the nerve and support to do what they do.
Sometimes it really is that simple even though Occams Razor is a sharp thing to swallow for Israeli apologists.
 
demon said:
"The actions of the Palestinians are almost immaterial at the moment. The actions of the settlers and the IDF are crucial".

Ah yes, sadly somethings never change. Actions by the Palestinians are always immaterial.
The actions of the IDF and Settlers? Just substitute those groups with the US admin here. They are the same animal; that`s where they get the nerve and support to do what they do.
Sometimes it really is that simple even though Occams Razor is a sharp thing to swallow for Israeli apologists.
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Did you miss my link show that the majority of Arab’s wish for the destruction of Israel and how they admire bin Laden even over their own leaders including Palestinian?
The same question goes to CapelDodger who so far has ignored the question.
 
"Did you miss my link show that the majority of Arab’s wish for the destruction of Israel and how they admire bin Laden even over their own leaders including Palestinian?
The same question goes to CapelDodger who so far has ignored the question."


Like you blame them?
Didn`t miss it. One of my fav links actually.
 
demon said:

Like you blame them?
Didn`t miss it. One of my fav links actually.
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At least your one of the few terror/ Palestinian supports to admit it all comes down to the destruction of Israel all look forward to CapelDodger replie.
 
"At least your one of the few terror/ Palestinian supports to admit it all comes down to the destruction of Israel all look forward to CapelDodger replie."

If you want to put it in those terms then yes.
I view state terrorism as a greater evil however.
You ever think how you would feel if you woke up to find a bulldozer collapsing your house around your ears? Just because some fundamentalist fancies building his own house on top of it?
I know how I feel, and I know what I`d want to do about it.

Incidently, why look foward to Cape Dodger`s reply? I`m sure you could write it yourself.
 
You ever think how you would feel if you woke up to find a bulldozer collapsing your house around your ears?
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The problem with this Isreali tactic is that it doesn't help is PR with the palestenians. To the palestenian civilian who sees an IDF bulldozer destroying a house in a town or camp, that civilian must be pretty angry at the IDF.

To the Palestenian civilian, a bulldozer destroying a house doesn't make them very happy.

Gem
 
demon said:


If you want to put it in those terms then yes.
I view state terrorism as a greater evil however.
You ever think how you would feel if you woke up to find a bulldozer collapsing your house around your ears? Just because some fundamentalist fancies building his own house on top of it?
I know how I feel, and I know what I`d want to do about it.
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Oh so you wouldn’t think there where weapons being hidden in the homes or bomb factories
And How dare the Israelis try to counter women and children being blown up on a bus or market.

There is nothing on this issue that you can tell that I haven’t already heard I have studied every aspect of the conflict.
 
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