Does the "Road map" lead to Peace?

[NoZed Avenger]

I think it will be like the NI situation, splinter groups will still do what they want.

I hope you're wrong, but you certainly have 30 years of history on your side on that prediction.


NA

 

[Cleopatra]

Warning:

The following post is a reply to Capel Dodger. I don't have taboos when it comes to political conversations (I think CD doesn’t have either) so people who are sensitive to political incorrectness they'd better skip my post, I don't intend to amuse you by violating the forum rules anyway...

______________

Capel Dodger, I was rather disappointed to read that you consider Ariel Sharon the key to the present phase of the issue.

What Ariel Sharon and Israel think and wish doesn't really matter right now. If you want to foresee -like a modern Claudius Ptolemy- the future in the area you must set aside your personal "tastes" and examine Hammas and Yasser Arafat.

Sharon didn't use the word “occupied territories” by accident, indeed. Even if somebody hasn't realized immediately that the whole thing was a set-up, the "day after" news must have showed him the truth... Who rebuked Sharon for using the term "occupied Territories" ? The Attorney General (Elyakim Rubinstein) ?? Bwahahahaha, this was a good one.

So, The real question is why? Is it because he is a nationalist who backed off under the pressure of the economical situation, is it for security reasons or it is because " there is always the fear that US is about to launch pogroms against Jews because this what we are told by the Jews who enjoy to victimize themselves"?

Nothing of the above of course. Why to let us be controlled by our hidden desires, tastes and emotions ( " there is always the fear that US is about to launch pogroms against Jews" ) that usually block our judgment and not let ourselves be driven by the common logic instead?

From the one hand, Sharon wanted to show the world that he is a good, obedient boy. It was a favor to our Master, the USA president. Can you picture it? 50 years of bloodshed and none can do anything, everybody is desperate, bombs explode every five minutes in Jerusalem and George W just whistles and the puppies freeze...

On the other hand, however strange this might sound it was a clear message to Hamas and Yasser Terrosist Arafat that Israel has decided to throw the dices for one last time. Sharon won't be afraid to risk his life (I was touched Capel Dodger that you are afraid of Sharon's life though) so as you understand a man who risks to be murdered by his empty headed compatriots, won't hesitate to throw Hamas and Co to the sea and for good this time.

I think that I might vote for him next time, if he is still alive….

I consider this a fair game, don't you think Capel Dodger? They will either come to their senses or they will be History. We really don't give a flying !@$#$%^ about the public opinion.

If not like a clever man, at least as a Brit, I am sure you will understand what I mean. Public opinion doesn’t count the same way democratic referendums and this sort of crap doesn’t mean anything. I am sure you will agree.

As for the fear of pogroms against Jews in the States. To tell you the truth when 11/9 happened, I was afraid that USA would revise their policy towards Israel. Obviously for a moment I must have forgotten how clumsy Arabs are when it comes to strategy and diplomacy and what sort of decadent European royalties have for allies in Europe.

The most interesting point is to guess if George W is going to play “Nixon in China” indeed but… however pleasant our discussion might be, I have a garden to water and three cats and a dog to look after and I will be back later on this

 

[a_unique_person]

Warning:

The following post is a reply to Capel Dodger. I don't have taboos when it comes to political conversations (I think CD doesn’t have either) so people who are sensitive to political incorrectness they'd better skip my post, I don't intend to amuse you by violating the forum rules anyway...

______________

Capel Dodger, I was rather disappointed to read that you consider Ariel Sharon the key to the present phase of the issue.

What Ariel Sharon and Israel think and wish doesn't really matter right now. If you want to foresee -like a modern Claudius Ptolemy- the future in the area you must set aside your personal "tastes" and examine Hammas and Yasser Arafat.

......


The most interesting point is to guess if George W is going to play “Nixon in China” indeed but… however pleasant our discussion might be, I have a garden to water and three cats and a dog to look after and I will be back later on this

So, what you are saying is, it is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the original intentions every one had in the first place.

 

[BillyTK]

If not like a clever man, at least as a Brit, I am sure you will understand what I mean. Public opinion doesn’t count the same way democratic referendums and this sort of crap doesn’t mean anything. I am sure you will agree.

I appreciate this comment was meant for Capel Dodger, but as a "Brit" myself, I must say I'm mystified.

Care to elucidate, your highness?

 

[BillyTK]

So, what you are saying is, it is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the original intentions every one had in the first place.

Would that be:
Palestinians: a range of intentions from establishing a Palestinian homeland to "reclaiming" Israel's territories to driving Israel into the sea (bad analogy--sorree!);
Israel: a range of intentions from securing Israel's sovereignty to extending Israel's borders to the sea;
The UK: exorcising post-colonial guilt;
The US: establishing a permanent military base in the Arab world, either directly or by proxy. And now they've "got" Iraq... Hmmm...

 

[Jim Lennox]

I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation. They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.

originally posted by Richard G

I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.

originally posted by Tony

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

 

[BillyTK]

quote:
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I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation. They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
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originally posted by Richard G

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.
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originally posted by Tony

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

Hmmm... good point. Their comments certainly hover at the boundaires of incitement to violence... Let's be good skeptics and test it.

 

[Genghis Pwn]

It just occured to me... If W pulls this off, and this roadmap achieves early peace and a Palestinian state looks to be just over the horizon, the 2004 elections could be an even bigger wipeout than Gulf War II.

 

[Cleopatra]

So, what you are saying is, it is all smoke and mirrors to cover up the original intentions every one had in the first place.

Not at all!!! At least Sharon means it!!! He will do his best for peace. Read this :

Sharon to Look at Palestinian State
1 hour, 4 minutes ago Add Top Stories - AP to My Yahoo!


By MARK LAVIE, Associated Press Writer

JERUSALEM - Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told his Palestinian counterpart he would negotiate the creation of a state for the Palestinians if they fight terrorism, setting a guarded but optimistic tone for next week's three-way summit with President Bush

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...030530/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_palestinians_598

But let's be serious. Do we believe in miracles? Has kind God turned Ariel from a Hawk to a Pigeon? No, I don't think so...

This is why I said to Capel Dodger that the future of the Palestinians is in Hamas' hands and he'd better focus on that side. I am curious on what Capel Dodger or you Unique or anybody has to say about them...


Billy TK

I appreciate this comment was meant for Capel Dodger, but as a "Brit" myself, I must say I'm mystified.

Care to elucidate

Yes I will, without wanting to insult anybody. The British Empire is notorious for the way it treated people in the colonies, ignoring the public opinion.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to welcome the trolls of the forum to our nice conversation. There you go idiots... ruin it.

 

[hisham]

originally posted by Richard G


originally posted by Tony

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

did you hear about the Israeli Propaganda: arabs will throw Israel into the sea!! . Now Richard G Exposed the reality.

 

[patnray]

Based on past initiatives I suspect this is what will happen:

The Israeli's will be pressured into agreeing to unpopular concessions. But before they actually implement them they will embark on a series of provocative acts outside the frame work of the current plan. They will claim surprise that the Palestinians find them provocative, and they will continue to provoke the Palestinians. The Palestinians, locked into a pattern self-defeating behaviour, will play into the Israeli's hands by responding with violence. The violence will then be used by Israel to justify abandoning the original commitments.

It has always worked in the past.

The only way the process can succeed is if the Palestinians can embrace non-violent means to resist the Israeli provocation. I don't see that happening unless the US recognizes the provocation and reaches out to the Palestinians to blunt the impact...

 

[Pyrrho]

quote:
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I doubt it. The brain dead Palestinians will blow it by blowing themselves up, and others with them, like they have with every other peace negotiation. They are a rabid dog that needs to be put down.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Richard G


quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I doubt it, the Palestinian vermin will eventually detonate themselves in an Israeli mall and the whole road map will be discarded and forgotten. The only way to bring peace is through victory. The Palestinians need to be engaged in an all out war until they are all dead or they unconditionally surrender.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Tony



Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

As far as the Rules go, it seems so, absent any further clarification by the administrator.

http://www.randi.org/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17421

 

[Denise]

I suspect that if someone posted that Americans are rabid dogs and need to be put down, then the post would probably be reported to authorities after 911.

How can you call an entire ethnic group a rabid dog?

 

[George 152]

I suspect that if someone posted that Americans are rabid dogs and need to be put down, then the post would probably be reported to authorities after 911.

How can you call an entire ethnic group a rabid dog?

Call 'em cards.. after all, dogs go round in packs

 

[a_unique_person]

I suspect that if someone posted that Americans are rabid dogs and need to be put down, then the post would probably be reported to authorities after 911.

How can you call an entire ethnic group a rabid dog?

I have been called anti-semitic for criticising Israeli policy using language far tamer than these guys are using about arabs.

 

[a_unique_person]

Not at all!!! At least Sharon means it!!! He will do his best for peace. Read this :

Not trying to give you a hard time, Cleopatra, but I have already interpreted Sharon's intentions as installing a Palestinian 'City Council', rather than a real nation. It will presumably have the fence around it, and the people will be clustered in the existing cities, while Isreaeli settlements continue to be built in the areas excised from the West Bank and Gaza. The Israeli army will then pull out, to outside the wall.

EDITED TO ADD: I forgot to welcome the trolls of the forum to our nice conversation. There you go idiots... ruin it.

At last people have started to comment on them.

 

[Cleopatra]

Are we allowed say things like that on this forum?

It's just a matter of self-respect not to post such things.Sometimes, when we are mad we think worse things than that but we must remember that "verba vollant, scripta manent"...

These things are not nice, they hurt people.

I think that Tony himself will proceed to all the necessary steps

 

[CapelDodger]

Cleopatra:

there is always the fear that US is about to launch pogroms against Jews because this what we are told by the Jews who enjoy to victimize themselves

Not exactly what I said. It implies a dig at Jews, which is hardly what you'll get from me. For the record, my opinion is that traditionalist leaders of the "Jewish community" exaggerate the extent and danger of anti-semitism to counter what they see as undesirable assimilation, and to maintain their own status.

"I was rather disappointed to read that you consider Ariel Sharon the key to the present phase of the issue

The tanks, the gunships, the fighter-bombers, the bulldozers are Israeli. The territorial expansion currently going on is by Israelis. The attacks being launched against Israeli do not remotely threaten its existence or capacity to respond if they wish; the problem is that they do so wish, which is what the bombers want. And Sharon, personally, has been a major participant in the last 50 years of the Yishuv. He has long had a signifacnt following in, and influence over, the military. He even invaded Lebanon without reference to his Prime Minister. He is now the closest thing to a ruler that Israel has ever had. The way that he thinks and acts are crucial. For instance, quite possibly he is the only person who could take the military with him on the road-map. That's what I meant by "Nixon goes to China"; no-one (well, no-one rational - I just remembered Jedi Knight) could accuse Nixon of being soft on Communism, and no-one could accuse Sharon of being soft on nationalism. So they can take the risk.

"From the one hand, Sharon wanted to show the world that he is a good, obedient boy. It was a favor to our Master, the USA president

I really can't see that. Sharon, I'm sure, thinks of the US as soft. They're useful, but they'll be ditched the moment they become an impediment to Israel's plans. I doubt if he thinks a US president can cut him adrift and hope to survive politically. He may, however, get what he wants more easily by making gestures. Whether that's what is going on I can't say.

On the other hand, however strange this might sound it was a clear message to Hamas and Yasser Terrosist Arafat that Israel has decided to throw the dices for one last time. Sharon won't be afraid to risk his life (I was touched Capel Dodger that you are afraid of Sharon's life though) so as you understand a man who risks to be murdered by his empty headed compatriots, won't hesitate to throw Hamas and Co to the sea and for good this time

Of course I'm concerned for Sharon; "every man's death diminishes me". (I can just picture people who know me rolling around at that.) No, I'd have popped the fat ◊◊◊◊ myself given the chance, but not right now. If that does happen the results are likely to be calamitous - look at how things have gone since Rabin's murder. Of course it could have the effect of bringing Israelis around to the road-map to honour his work, but that's not exactly how they responded before.

If not like a clever man ..

Tread carefully.

... at least as a Brit ...

By default.

... I am sure you will understand what I mean

Er ... no. But you elucidated for BillyTK :

he British Empire is notorious for the way it treated people in the colonies, ignoring the public opinion

Who ever gave much thought to public opinion in the past, or gives much thought to it now if they don't have to? If you want notorious try the Turks.
But more to the point, only the old and the sad give any thought to the Empire these days, or feels any kind of responsibility for it. I'd estimate that at least 90% of the population have never heard of the Palestine Mandate, and most wouldn't understand an explanation ("League of Nations? Don't you mean the United Nations ...?"). Let history bury its own.

As for the fear of pogroms against Jews in the States. To tell you the truth when 11/9 happened, I was afraid that USA would revise their policy towards Israe

It rarely, if ever, works that way. I find it unimaginable that a US administration would get up and say "Right, you all saw what happened, so we're going to have to cut loose from Israel or they'll do it again". Instead they bombed the Taliban (happy days!). Sharon was going to stop the violence by being much more violent - of course, it didn't work. The Romans tried it on the Messiah-niks in Palestine, but the trouble didn't stop. The Brits tried it at Amritsar; negative effect. In the end, like the Romans, you have to make a wasteland and call it peace. Which is pretty much what's going on in Gaza.

... I have a garden to water and three cats and a dog ...

The weather has just become Mediterranean here over the last few days; I'm only in doing this because I'm over-heating. I also have cats to see to, but not mine and not in the same way. What's the price on three crocodiles, one bull and two cows? That should do the trick ...

 

[Cleopatra]

For the record, my opinion is that traditionalist leaders of the "Jewish community" exaggerate the extent and danger of anti-semitism to counter what they see as undesirable assimilation, and to maintain their own status.

Even if this is true -which is partly true in my opinion-they must not face particular difficulties to achieve their goal ( "maintain their own status" ) when comments like yours appear in fora

The attacks being launched against Israeli do not remotely threaten its existence or capacity to respond if they wish;

You are very wrong. Those attacks are carefully designed to destroy the spar of the society, to destroy democracy and freedom of expression in Israel. A month ago I went to Jesusalem for a couple of days -I haven't visited Israel since last September when I spent quite some time there... Those 8 months have turned things even worse... The streets are deserted, people are afraid to go for a drink or even to use the bus.

Arabs have succeeded in building an invisible wall around the Israeli society, a wall that leads to isolation and therefor to death...
So, please...leave the crocodile tears to my crocodiles...

Sharon, I'm sure, thinks of the US as soft. They're useful, but they'll be ditched the moment they become an impediment to Israel's plans. I doubt if he thinks a US president can cut him adrift and hope to survive politically. He may, however, get what he wants more easily by making gestures. Whether that's what is going on I can't say.

You can't be serious. Israel depends totally on USA... What are you talking about? Since both of us share a mutual contempt about the public opinion, I think that all I have to do to persuade you is to remind you how easy is to change the heads of the masses. In USA they master this art .

Of course I'm concerned for Sharon; "every man's death diminishes me".

Yeah right! Courage Capel Dodger!!!

Don't worry about Ariel, he knows the rules and he can handle the extremes better than the late Rabin.

Who ever gave much thought to public opinion in the past, or gives much thought to it now if they don't have to? If you want notorious try the Turks.

Ha! When fellow Greeks compare themselves to Turks to imply their superiority I can't help but lifting my left eyebrow ironically Capel Dodger... Comparing yourself with the bottom of the barrel doesn't permit safe conclusions...

But more to the point, only the old and the sad give any thought to the Empire these days

I am not old and not sad at all, thank God but lately I think very often of the Empire for reasons I will present in the thread about the new EU Constitution... Our misfortunes sping from the Empire and the pcychological problems that the Empire has created to its offsprings...

It rarely, if ever, works that way. I find it unimaginable that a US administration would get up and say "Right, you all saw what happened, so we're going to have to cut loose from Israel or they'll do it again".

This is because Arabs are not famous for their intelligence when it comes to strategics... Imagine what would happen if suicide bombers started exploding in Manhattan...

The weather has just become Mediterranean here over the last few days; I'm only in doing this because I'm over-heating.

So, let me drink to the nice British "heat" which made you come here to illuminate us...

Don't forget what Justine,Lawrence Durrel's jewish heroine who was living in Alexandria has said about the Mediterranean weather to a man that was complaining about the heat... "You just need a Mediterranean heart to take it " [from the first book of"The Alexandrian Quartet"]

I also have cats to see to, but not mine and not in the same way. What's the price on three crocodiles, one bull and two cows? That should do the trick ...

Capel Dodger you astonish me...remember what Sir Winston has said about cats ( Please don't make any arrogant remarks about Sir Winston...).

Diodorus of Sicily while describing the obsession of Egyptians with cats in the year 1 BC, makes a very smart remark: " Cats resemble to women to many things. The most striking resemblance though, is that both of them enjoy to observe what their master hates most in order to do it to him"

So, those cats in your neighborhood must have observed that you don't wish others to touch your flowers and they give you what they think that you deserve...

I hope that there are no other female eyes that are observing you too while working in your garden for ...even all the crocodiles of the Nile won't be able to save you and your garden...


Unique I owe you an answer.

 

[Richard G]

Oops.