Does Raising Suicide-Awareness actually help anyone?

[Dismember]

Her death (especially by her own hands) would have been devastating for many people, and it's that obliviousness that I can't comprehend.

That's the whole point. She was probably so hurt and lost she had no idea how it would affect others; she may have been convinced they'd be better off without her. Same with the jumper. You say he made eye contact, but there's a good chance he was so lost in his own pain that he was barely even aware other people were present. I can't buy into the "selfish" argument.

For the record, I'm not referring to people with terminal illnesses, people with unrelenting physical pain, or the impulsive mentally ill guy. I'm talking about the premeditated suicide-note people.

The people you described above ARE premeditated suicide note people.

And what makes you think the jumper wasn't mentally ill? Why doesn't he get any slack? I'm baffled by this "some guy committed suicide right in front of me, the nerve of some people!" attitude.

Knowing that your action will make someone's life worse

That is not common "knowledge" among the suicidal. But even if it were, I don't think anyone should be obligated to prioritize everyone else, including strangers and acquaintances, over themselves. (I do not support suicide, but I don't feel it's my right to expect a suicidal person to alter his course just because his suicide might inconvenience me.)

I just don't see how that's not selfish...

I honestly don't see how you think a stranger (or just about anyone, really) committing suicide is somehow all about you and your feelings.

I can understand why someone with a family to support might be given less slack, especially from the actual family. But the point is that they themselves are often (usually, I would guess) convinced they're doing their loved ones a favor. So, again, it is not a matter of being selfish.

All I'm saying is I don't like selfish, anti-social dicks.

I made a suicide attempt as a teenager. My family was abusive, and I had no close friends, no resources, no coping skills and no one I could really trust. An easy target for pretty much any predator within a 20 mile radius. Most of the time I was shy and socially awkward, so it was hard to articulate what I was feeling, when given the chance to do so. I can't even describe what it's like to live in a relentless haze of pain and isolation, but I can tell you that it's a common experience for the clinically depressed. Things don't necessarily improve for those who live to see adulthood. To call a suicidal person a "selfish, anti-social dick" just seems cold and a bit heartless.

Bah. Maybe I'm just incapable of being objective.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

Also, this again:

Being alive, and the choices we make when alive, creates pain for others, it leaves messes for others to clean up. Our actions frighten, offend, disturb and unsettle others. In what way is the action of suicide so different from our other actions?

Okay, now you're just taking the ****.

 

[HansMustermann]

Okay, now you're just taking the ****.

I don't know if he's taking the piss or not, but I'm asking just that in all seriousness: do you really have a right to tell someone what to do with their life, based just on its being inconvenient or upsetting to someone else?

E.g., my grandma is still thoroughly heartbroken over my not becoming a doctor. (Dunno what's with her doctor obsession, really. I wonder if there's some Jewish genes in that part of the family) She still accuses me of having lied to her about it, just because at some point in high school I actually considered that possibility. Every other time I talk to her, I get to hear how I set her hopes high, and then so inconsiderately dashed them.

Should I have ****ed up my life, just to not upset her? Serious question.

Or is it ok to do what _I_ want, as long as it's not causing direct harm to anyone.

What about all the other ways to offend? Some vegan might be offending by my eating some murdered cow's meat. Some animal rights activist might take offense at my leather shoes. Some fundie might take offense at my not going to church. Some islamist might take offense that no woman in my family wears a burqa.

Basically, is it even possible to live (or die) and never upset anyone at all? Is it that anti-social to tell them to mind their own business?

Why is it any different for suicide? If you wouldn't tell someone to wear a burqa so she doesn't upset her arab neighbours, why would you tell her not to commit suicide because it upsets someone else?

 

[MikeSun5]

Yet you feel qualified to pass some pretty harsh judgment if they don't meet your expectations.

As qualified as anyone else with an opinion. Your disagreeing still doesn't warrant strawmen.

I'm not that big on holding people responsible for stuff out of their control, and honestly, once you're dead, you're in no position to decide who gets to find the corpse.

Correct. That "I won't care, I'll be dead," attitude is what I don't like.

Now you've got my curiosity piqued. Exactly how would you go about it, so nobody else has to deal with it?

Not that I'm planning to use that knowledge any time soon, mind you, but I'm still curious.

Nice try Mr. Lecter, but I'm in this for the long haul. Let's get this straight: I disagree with suicide. I think it is selfish, easy, and the behavior of a mentally disturbed and weak-willed individual. Suicidal people need help, not the justification you're pushing. But to answer your (rather obscene) question, I think Dr. Kevorkian could have had a lucrative business on his hands.

It's just that it seems to me like if that's their choice, I'm going to respect that.

As will I. Respect the choice - not the dead person.

 

[MikeSun5]

And what makes you think the jumper wasn't mentally ill? Why doesn't he get any slack? I'm baffled by this "some guy committed suicide right in front of me, the nerve of some people!" attitude.

You're right about the dude, and I have to retract what I said about the mentally ill because in the context of this thread at least, I'm sure we can agree that all suicidal people are mentally ill. I have no idea if that guy was crazy, on drugs, or what. I was simply saying that experience solidified my opinion on suicide. And no, it's not about MY feelings... if you read my posts, I was more concerned about my girlfriend and these three kids nearby who were with their parents. I've seen nasty stuff before. I was fine.

To call a suicidal person a "selfish, anti-social dick" just seems cold and a bit heartless.

I agree, and I never said suicidal people were. It's the ones that go through with it that I have a problem with.

You yourself had problems that you learned to live with, and I'll bet more people than you know have benefited from you being here. If one person can do it, we all can. That's all I'm saying.

 

[jiggeryqua]

Okay, now you're just taking the ****.

No, I'm just expecting you to engage with actual ideas, using your intelligence and holding your arguments to common standards round here. As far as I can see, you're claiming that suicide is wrong because it's wrong, and anyone who says otherwise is wrong...clearly, because they're wrong.

You are supporting the argument that suicide creates emotional pain for your loved ones and leaves a mess for people to clean up. If that were an argument against dieing at your own hand, why is it not an argument against remaining alive? Being alive creates emotional and physical pain for those around you. I repeat my request for anyone to come forward and say that no action in their life has caused pain to another - and I repeat my assertion that anyone who did so claim is very likely to be so self-absorbed they are merely unaware of the pain they have caused. Being alive also creates a mess that needs cleaning up. Being killed for your country or just your livelihood does the same.

Feel free to argue against suicide - but try to use an argument that can't equally be applied to being alive...and try to do better than 'are you taking the ****?' when the flaws in your argument are pointed out.

 

[jiggeryqua]

If one person can do it, we all can. That's all I'm saying.

...and that's a fatuous argument too.

 

[Dismember]

You're right about the dude, and I have to retract what I said about the mentally ill because in the context of this thread at least, I'm sure we can agree that all suicidal people are mentally ill.

I wasn't reading it quite that way, but it was late, and I may have misunderstood something. For the sake of discussion I'll try to stick with that context.

I was more concerned about my girlfriend and these three kids nearby who were with their parents.

I think Hans Mustermann covered this angle pretty well in post 83.

Most of us do not go around trying to offend people. But in reality, people are affected by different things, and you can't always control what will offend another person. I don't think it's fair to hold a suicidal person to that standard anyway, especially in the context of severe mental and emotional disturbance.

I agree, and I never said suicidal people were. It's the ones that go through with it that I have a problem with.

Why does the distinction matter?

You yourself had problems that you learned to live with,

I eventually learned coping skills, yes, but only because my own attempt was unsuccessful. If I had succeeded, would I have automatically become a selfish, antisocial dick?

I just don't think it's that simple.

and I'll bet more people than you know have benefited from you being here.

I believe (well, hope) this is true, but it's easy to make those kinds of statement after the fact.

I hope it doesn't sound like I'm trying to validate suicide as a way of dealing with problems, because I don't see it that way at all. But I cannot agree with the notion that people who commit (or attempt) suicide can all be defined as "selfish antisocial dicks". Not even close.

If one person can do it, we all can. That's all I'm saying.

This is flawed reasoning (hasty generalization fallacy, I think?). Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way.

 

[HansMustermann]

If one person can do it, we all can. That's all I'm saying.

That's actually pretty false for just about anything you can imagine. One person could run the marathon in 2h03:59, most people can't, and most people wouldn't be called anti-social dicks if they choose not to. You won't get Stephen Hawking running the marathon no matter how much willpower might be involved.

Plus, it's a non-sequitur anyway. "Can" does not equal "should." If anything, suicide is the best counter-example here. Almost all can end their own life, but that doesn't mean they should. Hence if all you're saying is "If one person can do it, we all can" essentially all you're saying is just a bit of irrelevant fluff.

 

[Safe-Keeper]

You're right about the dude, and I have to retract what I said about the mentally ill because in the context of this thread at least, I'm sure we can agree that all suicidal people are mentally ill.

It's common in this day and age to label everyone who kill people or themselves as mentally ill. Reality is sadly not that simple.

It's a bit of an extreme example, but look at the Japanese and German suicide pilots who flew their fighters into Allied warships and bombers, respectively. Were they all mentally ill? Every single one of them? No, they were patriotic and determined (not to mention brainwashed) enough to believe that such a drastic step was necessary to protect their homelands against what was perceived to be utter destruction. For another example, look at the lynchings in the US in the old days -- whole villages rounding up and torturing African-Americans. Were they all mentally ill? Could a whole village be filled with psychopaths and other dangerously unstable people? I kinda doubt it.

Fact is, you can commit atrocities without being mentally ill. Delusions and madness are two different, separate things.

Feel free to argue against suicide - but try to use an argument that can't equally be applied to being alive...and try to do better than 'are you taking the ****?' when the flaws in your argument are pointed out.

You know what? No. I'm trying to explain to you how badly suicide actually hurts people, and you reply with a patronizing "oh, but you can hurt others all the time". That's like me saying you shouldn't drive drunk because you run a high risk of wrecking others vehicles and injuring and killing someone -- and receiving as a reply that "oh, but that doesn't matter, because all your life you run the risk of damaging stuff you don't own or getting others hurt. Just last night I ran into the rear bumper of the vehicle in front of me, and that's no different!".

I have very strong feelings about suicide, and I frankly don't have the patience to discuss it with people who don't take it more seriously than you do. Call me childishesque or immature all you want, but I'm not doing it.

 

[jiggeryqua]

You know what? No. I'm trying to explain to you how badly suicide actually hurts people, and you reply with a patronizing "oh, but you can hurt others all the time". That's like me saying you shouldn't drive drunk because you run a high risk of wrecking others vehicles and injuring and killing someone -- and receiving as a reply that "oh, but that doesn't matter, because all your life you run the risk of damaging stuff you don't own or getting others hurt. Just last night I ran into the rear bumper of the vehicle in front of me, and that's no different!".

I have very strong feelings about suicide, and I frankly don't have the patience to discuss it with people who don't take it more seriously than you do. Call me childishesque or immature all you want, but I'm not doing it.

Fair enough - I don't have a lot of patience for people who want their 'strong feelings' to trump actual arguments. I take it very seriously - I just seriously reach a different conclusion to you...and you persist on the lines of "it's wrong because it's wrong because it's wrong".

It's been covered by other people (including the mother of an adult who committed suicide): it is not necessary, inevitable or 'right' to imagine that your self-interest should outweigh the decision of someone who chooses suicide.

Your crass construction of my argument as a drunk-driving analogy is offensive - though not as offensive as suicide, I'm sure. Risking killing other people is not analagous to killing oneself and leaving loved ones with grief and unanswered questions. I appreciate you don't have the patience to examine your own ideas and present reasoned arguments, but should you find yourself with some spare time and sufficient inclination, I'm prepared to read them.

 

[JJM 777]

Ehh I have been thinking that the state should offer euthanasia, just walk to an office and reserve a time -- maybe the earliest possible time should be a month from the date of reservation. Then the doctors will do it cleanly and painlessly.

I got this idea when reading an article in Der Spiegel that said how many times as average every train driver in Germany witnesses a suicide, just a few meters in front of their eyes. There must be a more civilized way to do what apparently must be done.

How to make people convinced that suicide should not be done at all, is a different and separate issue.

 

[HansMustermann]

SK, I dunno about him, but I'm asking in all seriousness and it seems to me like there's nothing inherently wrong in expecting a reason that's, you know, reason and not excuse. Where you can actually say "if X then Y" whatever that Y may happen to be, and not "if X then Y, but only as long as it's the kind of Y I need a justification for. Otherwise maybe it's Z. Or W."

If you propose a system where basically I'm supposed to refrain from X if it causes a certain amount of grief to others, I'd expect a system that makes sense for any X, not just when X="suicide."

The example with the drunk driving is actually OK to make my point. There's an objective relationship between BAC and impairment of judgment and reflexes, and it applies to a broader category of potentially dangerous activity than just driving. That X can be just as well "driving the forklift at a china factory" or "juggling chainsaws" or "playing with live ammo" or just "calling your ex at midnight to beg her to have you back." It's a relationship between BAC and activities which become bad ideas, that's not tied to just justifying _one_ restriction.

I'd like to see the same here. If indeed I'm supposed to base one major decision on how much grief it would cause to others, then which other decisions in my life I should take based on that instead of what I'd like?

Should I also go to church every Sunday, so it doesn't upset a dozen fundies who by now must think I'm the antichrist? Should I become a vegan if a couple of them around me are genuinely grieved that I'm eating a bit of a murdered cow? Should I ditch the leather coat and shoes if it makes someone around grieve for the murdered animal whose skin I'm wearing?

Exactly where is the grief threshold where I become an anti-social dick if I don't let other's sensibilities overrule my free will? Serious question.

Or if you want it to be about suicide, here's a serious problem about that:

As I was saying, grandma is still griefing over my not becoming a doctor. By comparison, it took her a lot less time to get over the death of her own mother or sisters or one nephew. Very impartially and objectively looking at it, I would have probably caused her 10 times less grief if I had sucked on a shotgun instead of going to the wrong university. Should I have done the former instead of the latter?

 

[jiggeryqua]

Ehh I have been thinking that the state should offer euthanasia, just walk to an office and reserve a time -- maybe the earliest possible time should be a month from the date of reservation. Then the doctors will do it cleanly and painlessly.

I got this idea when reading an article in Der Spiegel that said how many times as average every train driver in Germany witnesses a suicide, just a few meters in front of their eyes. There must be a more civilized way to do what apparently must be done.

How to make people convinced that suicide should not be done at all, is a different and separate issue.

I should clarify that I find some methods of suicide indefensible - and jumping under a train is probably top of that list. I don't believe you will ever argue suicide out of existence, but governments could establish peaceful, dignified suicide-gardens or -lounges or such. What are the odds, do you suppose, of a succesful suicide robbing the world of a future Nobel winner, as against removing a potential serial killer?

ETA: No, flying a plane into a building or blowing yourself up in a crowded market would be top of the list, jumping under a train would be 3rd at best.

 

[Starthinker]

Nice try Mr. Lecter, but I'm in this for the long haul. Let's get this straight: I disagree with suicide. I think it is selfish, easy, and the behavior of a mentally disturbed and weak-willed individual.

If these are the things you think of a suicidal person then I feel sorry for anyone in your circle of influence that is suicidal. They will be hurt and offended by this, and it can easily drive them deeper into depression and closer to suicide.

People can't control what they feel any more than they can control the weather. Telling someone they are selfish, taking the easy way, or that they are weak willed is a sure way to make them feel worse. I won't argue with the mentally ill part, depression is an illness. I envy that you must have never been clinically, chronically depressed. If you were you'd know how offensive you are being. People have tried to point this out to you but you defend your position. I won't try to change your mind, it's how you feel and I respect that. Just know that you are offending people.

For nine years now I wake up in the morning knowing full well that I should be dead. It was a ridiculous fluke that I was found in time. One of the driving factors was people kept telling me how I should feel, and I felt bad that I wasn't feeling what I was supposed to (according to them). People are still telling me where I went wrong, and they have no idea. I will emphasize this, until you've gone through it you have no idea.

I'm still going through this, it has never ended. I lost my wife. My kids treat me differently. Coworkers avoid me. I've even been told to shut up already by people right here. You think I want this? Do you think this is the life I would have picked out for myself? Do you know how hard I try everyday to find something that will change this? Easy? Weak willed? Selfish? These words make me sick whenever I hear them applied to suicidal people. You are not the only one who has used these words and that's why there needs to be suicidal awareness.

These are my opinions, my experiences, agree or disagree I will not argue about them. As I've said, I respect your opinion, I just hope that if any of your friends or family feels suicidal they go somewhere else for help.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

I What are the odds, do you suppose, of a succesful suicide robbing the world of a future Nobel winner, as against removing a potential serial killer?

Future Nobel winner more likely IMO. I can elaborate if you wish.

 

[Professor Yaffle]

If these are the things you think of a suicidal person then I feel sorry for anyone in your circle of influence that is suicidal. They will be hurt and offended by this, and it can easily drive them deeper into depression and closer to suicide.

People can't control what they feel any more than they can control the weather. Telling someone they are selfish, taking the easy way, or that they are weak willed is a sure way to make them feel worse. I won't argue with the mentally ill part, depression is an illness. I envy that you must have never been clinically, chronically depressed. If you were you'd know how offensive you are being. People have tried to point this out to you but you defend your position. I won't try to change your mind, it's how you feel and I respect that. Just know that you are offending people.

For nine years now I wake up in the morning knowing full well that I should be dead. It was a ridiculous fluke that I was found in time. One of the driving factors was people kept telling me how I should feel, and I felt bad that I wasn't feeling what I was supposed to (according to them). People are still telling me where I went wrong, and they have no idea. I will emphasize this, until you've gone through it you have no idea.

I'm still going through this, it has never ended. I lost my wife. My kids treat me differently. Coworkers avoid me. I've even been told to shut up already by people right here. You think I want this? Do you think this is the life I would have picked out for myself? Do you know how hard I try everyday to find something that will change this? Easy? Weak willed? Selfish? These words make me sick whenever I hear them applied to suicidal people. You are not the only one who has used these words and that's why there needs to be suicidal awareness.

These are my opinions, my experiences, agree or disagree I will not argue about them. As I've said, I respect your opinion, I just hope that if any of your friends or family feels suicidal they go somewhere else for help.

Very well said.

 

[Richard Masters]

It would seem like that, but really my opinion was just solidified by that experience. I had a close friend of mine that told me she attempted it once, and I was shocked that she hadn't mentioned it to her parents, siblings, or friends. Her death (especially by her own hands) would have been devastating for many people, and it's that obliviousness that I can't comprehend.

For me at least, the impulse has been "mild", but when I get those impulses (none which I have acted upon, yet) usually the only thing in my mind is relief from pain. Maybe a few seconds later I think about my family and friends.

For the record, I'm not referring to people with terminal illnesses, people with unrelenting physical pain, or the impulsive mentally ill guy. I'm talking about the premeditated suicide-note people.

Are they mutually-exclusive? I would imagine the premeditated suicide is a result of the repeat intermittent impulses such as the one I described.

Sure suicide makes all your personal problems go away, but it creates more for others. I'm open to the fact I might be wrong, but I just don't see how that's not selfish...

It might also be a trade-off. If you are wondering how that's not selfish, then think about how some people go through checklists before going through with it, giving away valuable personal items, resolving personal conflicts, and attempting to minimize the impact of their death. These people seem to be thinking about their loved ones very much, yet they seem to be suffering enough to want to go through with it.

ETA: In fact, a lot of people might express the belief that others are better off without them. That sounds like attempting to stop being a burden to others, which is anything but selfish.

 

[Richard Masters]

Future Nobel winner more likely IMO. I can elaborate if you wish.

I am curious.

Very well said.

My sentiment, too.

 

[Dancing David]

Good question. Has anyone ever stopped a suicide in progress after noticing the warning signs? I knew a man who constantly talked about killing himself and one day he did it. There really was no way to stop him.

Yup, been there done that.

Had the police and the apartment manager. manager opens the door. Call 911 because they were unconsious.