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Does Libertarianism Allow For Jerks?

Suddenly said:
You said before that a DUI is an initiation of force. Explain how that follows from the above. Explain how a DUI keeps someone else from acting freely.

By placing them in a situation that is far more dangerous than what they have agreed to or are aware of. We all accept a certain amount of danger when we get into our cars, but anyone who is not in control of the vehicle poses a direct threat to everyone around them.

If they want to get drunk and drive on their own private road, that's fine. But they don't get to endanger others.
 
Diezel said:
But if Shane is arguing that, he could qualify it to say "Do not initiate force inside a Libertarian Nation" and you scenario would not disprove this, because there is no Libertarian Nation in your scenario. :)

Yes, a Libertarian nation operates under the noninitiation of force principle. This necessitates there having been the formation of a nation, otherwise there wouldn't be a nation that could be Libertarian to begin with.

I said in the island example that libertarianism was kind of moot at first, while everyone was just struggling for survival. Suddenly knows this.
 
gnome said:
I do have one concern about this situation... though I consider it reasonable... what to do when a company decides it does better with Snardo's "Yep!" Certification for product safety as with a legitimate service? The customer won't know the difference, it's got a nice shiny sticker on it with an official-looking checkmark.

Well, what would you do with such a company today? You're never going to get past caveat emptor.

But it is still the case that the company would be held liable for any harm their product caused; and, by extension, the certification body could be held liable too if they represent the product as safe. A certification body with lax standards would not last long.
 
Suddenly said:
If they say it isn't universal, then this suggests the question "how does one decide when it does apply?"

Simple: It applies when governments are formed, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.
 
Diezel said:
Clear cut case in point, one of the most trusted names in this field is Consumer Reports. They are so trusted, precisly because they are unbiased. They accept no advertising and purchase everything they review themselves. If Consumer Reports says something is good, you have a damn good chance of knowing it is good. If they say it is bad, I wouldn't buy it. There trust and reputation is based on being fair and unbiased and they would fail if they ever comprimised that trust.


The "Good Housekeeping" Seal is another example.
 
Diezel said:


It's a good question and one I don't have an answer to. But it seems you are trying to find some universal tool and we all know that doesn't exist. You need to find the tool that works for the job you are doing. The jobs change, the tools must change.

Political ideologies are just tools. To say that one will fit all jobs is patently false. Remember, we are talking about the formation of a populace into a functional society. Obviously when you have a populace of two, the best tool for the job isn't the same you would use on a populace of 200 million.

But for some reason, too many believe that politics is an absolute and only one tool is the best. Obviously that is not true. As Claus pointed out, the Scandanavian countries do quite well with their welfare states. That's fine, I'm glad it works there. There is a lot of good that comes from that. But to say that since it works there, it should work everywhere is false. You have differences of culture, geology, history, values, etc....

Yep. We've been saying the same thing, except you've been saying it in english. Thus the confusion.

I'm for the complete absence of universal rules... except where they are needed. ;)
 
shanek said:


By placing them in a situation that is far more dangerous than what they have agreed to or are aware of. We all accept a certain amount of danger when we get into our cars, but anyone who is not in control of the vehicle poses a direct threat to everyone around them.

If they want to get drunk and drive on their own private road, that's fine. But they don't get to endanger others.

Sorry. I don't see how "increased threat of harm" equates into keeping someone from acting freely. They have the same freedom of action either way.

Is everything that people do that raises the risk of danger to another person an initiation of force, and if not how can you tell the difference?

Don't drowsy drivers increase the risk? Those that talk on cell phones while driving? What about people with poor choice of footwear? Should there be laws about this as well?
 
I guess I should try to tie many of the things I said together and answer the question you are probably getting ready to ask "Why do you think libertarian ideals are the best tool for the job in the US?" (although I wouldn't characterize me ideals as libertarian)

Population is the major factor. Remember what I said about people being selfish and charity is a form of personal profit? Claus asks why it works in the instances it does?

The "warm and fuzzy feeling" people get when helping others is greatly diminished when they don't get the pleasure of seeing it appreciated. Why do you think they send you a picture of some kid when you donate to one of those "adopt-a-foreign-child" charitys? Because they know that people want to make themselves feel good when they donate and they feel much better when they actually see where their money is going.

This is why most people will tell you they would rather donate to a local charity than a national one. This is why it is so easy to get $250 for a software upgrade in about four posts, then it would be to try to get $250 in a general skepticism fund. The people knew where there money was going, they will see the benefits.

Now, in a small country of say 5 million people, situated in a small geographic area, the sense of familiarity is still not gone. A person in Denmark can still feel good about their charity, because they can still see the good it is doing. They still feel a common bond with everyone in their country, they still all feel as neighbors. So helping out the neighbors still feels good.

In Japan, anyone that is Japanese is treated like they are family. In the US, most people believe in the quote "Good fences make good neighbors." We are so large and diverse, in both culture and geography, we no longer feel like "family". What does a person in NYC care about a person in the hills of West Virginia? Or a person in Alaska care about a person in MI? Other than both happening to live in the same country, they have nothing in common. By no means do they feel like neighbors. And they will definitly not see the benefit their money is doing for those people. Naturally, they are not going to get any personal profit from their charity, so they are not going to be too happy about it.

Because I believe people are inherently selfish, I feel the best way to deal with that is not force them against their nature. Let them be selfish. This doesn't mean that nobody will ever give to charity, it will mean they will give it where they will maximize thier own personal profit, into their own community.

In Denmark, the whole country may feel like a community, so running a welfare state may seem appealing to them. But other than a few polarizing instances in US, people in the US do not feel all of our countrymen are "neighbors".

And there is another downside to government welfare in a large populace. When welfare is giving from a familiar source, say neighbors or a community group, the people that receive this help see the people that are helping them. They "feel the love" this help is given with. They understand that it was given to them to help them out. And they feel appreciation for it.

When help is given from a nameless, faceless entity such as government, there is less appreciation. And there is less incentive to give back to those that helped you. If your neighbor comes over to give you a hand, you appreciate what he has done for you and you feel that as soon as you can, you will help him out or pay him back as soon as possible. But do most people in the US that receive help appreciate where it is coming from? Does it give them the incentive to give back as soon as they can? My answer is no, they don't. And it is mostly not their fault, because it is hard to see that the help they are getting is actually coming from everyone. Some people in this country think the government just prints up money and passes it out; they seriously can't understand the government gets its money from the people, so the money they get is coming from the people.

In a small population, it is still possible to see the faces behind the government, so they may not suffer from this effect. I am often asked "Why isn't there a splurge of 'Welfare Babies" in Sweden?", this is one answer. In a small population, it may still be possible to feel the social obligation you have to use the help to better yourself, because that is why your neighbors gave it to you. In the US, that just doesn't exist anymore. And you may ask "What social obligation?" The one that exists when you give money like this. If you gave money to your friend to pay his rent and he drank it all, would you be happy? If a friend gave you money to go to school, so you could get a decent job, wouldn't you feel obligated to your friend to go to school and get a good job? Would it be proper and ethical to drop or flunk out of school and waste that money?

And isn't that the concept of welfare? To help those that can't help themselves? For the ones that can never help themselves, then it is a grant. But for those that can help themselves, it is a grant with the social agreement that they will use that money to put themselves into a position to help themselves. When they don't do that, they fail that social argreement. In a small population, people may be able to still feel that social obligation, but in a large populace, it becomes impossible. It is such and impersonal process, there is no connection between the help and the people giving the help.

That's why I feel the best way to approach charity in the US is from a local, community level. This is where it is best applied, best used, best appreciated and sees the best returns. When people with faces are able to give to people with faces, everyone wins.

That is how I decided which tool to use in this situation.
 
shanek said:


Simple: It applies when governments are formed, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed.

So if there is no government as you describe, the non-initiation of force principle does not apply and a libertarian is justified in initiating force? Is that your position?
 
shanek said:
Your selective quote-mining aside, I have said on numerous different occasions that there will be jerks; the only question is what should be done about them.

What big government does is actually give them an avenue for being jerks, and so we have to put up with many more jerks than we would otherwise. Case in point: I mentioned in a couple of other threads that our Commissioners a few months ago rejected a zoning plan that would allow a man to build a restaurant, even though it was approved unanimously by the planning board, because of ONE jerk who stood up during the Commissioners meeting and blathered on about how she didn't want her kids exposed to alcohol. Without big government, all she could do is b!tch and moan about it, but she wouldn't have the power to force her will on the restaurant owner without resorting to criminal activity.

You can't force people not to be jerks. All you can do is take away the big government tools that allow them to be jerks over each other, and hold them responsible when they try to force their jerkiness on others.

Furthermore, I have explained this to you both so many times that the only possible explanation for your claims about libertarianism in this thread is that you are either deliberately lying or are deluding yourselves. Either way, it is a sign of pure bigotry, and a refusal to consider the arguments of the other side. This behavior is not becoming of people who call themselves skeptics.

We live near the beach, so in summer there is a big problem with drunken youths. Some idiot wanted to open up a bottle shop on the corner of the street. We all opposed it, got turned down. My anecdote will beat your anecdote any day.

BTW, one person objecting will not mean that a proposal will be turned down. It is still assessed on it's merits, and how it fits in with regulations. For example, you cannot put a business in a residential area. This means you won't wake up one day to find a panel beating shop has been set up next door to you.
 
shanek said:

(snip)

Harry Browne wouldn't have gotten rid of national defense.

Shane, thanks for the response. I'm always better off being better informed, even if we don't agree.

Harry Browne most certainly would not have gotten rid of national defense. However, that was how the question was asked. Methinks he was looking for someone who was thinking to themselves, "I'd get rid of public education for the benefit of not having to pay income tax." ...or something to that effect.

But, the first thing I thought of were the things that we want government to provide, things like national defense and law enforcement. I'd gladly not pay income tax and get those services, but I wouldn't want to be rid of them for the benefit of keeping that extra income.
 
Suddenly said:
So if there is no government as you describe, the non-initiation of force principle does not apply and a libertarian is justified in initiating force? Is that your position?

No, I'm saying that government policies are moot when there is no government.
 
Ziggurat said:
I decided to take a little peak at Shanek's link about libertarianism:
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=21993

I like the following quote:

In a Libertarian America, government will be so small, there will be no need for an income tax. Thus you'll have the resources to acquire whatever you need to protect you from incompetence, double-dealing, or even violence. And if the assistance you hire doesn't work, you can turn to someone who does a better job -- unlike when politicians take your money, leave you helpless and force you to rely on them to do the right thing.

Does this mean I'm free to murder with impunity, as long as I do it better than anyone else? Or can afford better protection?
 
EvilYeti said:
Does this mean I'm free to murder with impunity, as long as I do it better than anyone else? Or can afford better protection?

Yes and no.

The problem with Libertarians is that they're not willing to go full circle and privatize government. Imagine a society where private defense agencies vie for your hard-earned dollars in a free-market; as opposed to the current bumbling and inefficient government monopoly on force.

Yes, in theory you could murder a person who is incapable of enforcing their rights to non-interference... but private protection firms acting on market principles would not allow that to happen. They would have made the ne'er-do-wells slaves long before you had the opportunity.

If you are displeased with firm A's services, then you can go right down the block to B. Or you can tell both of them to screw off, purchase a stockpile of weapons and save a load of money.

How many Libertarians does it take to screw in a light bulb? None. The free-market will do it.
 
re initiation of force and initial property ownership

If, as diezel says, libertarianism relies on the current state of ownership what happens with inheritance?

If somebody "owns" a large estate now and dies intestate who get it?

My understanding of libertarianism is that it'd be a land grab and the first squatter in gets it all. Anything else would need to be "enforced by men with guns" from the gubment right? Or would the goal posts be arbitrarily moved again to say that laws and government intervention in this regard is ok. But not anywhere else (unless we find more cases where it rationally needs to then we'll shift the posts again).
 
Re: re initiation of force and initial property ownership

heath said:
If, as diezel says, libertarianism relies on the current state of ownership what happens with inheritance?

If somebody "owns" a large estate now and dies intestate who get it?

My understanding of libertarianism is that it'd be a land grab and the first squatter in gets it all. Anything else would need to be "enforced by men with guns" from the gubment right? Or would the goal posts be arbitrarily moved again to say that laws and government intervention in this regard is ok. But not anywhere else (unless we find more cases where it rationally needs to then we'll shift the posts again).

I'm not quite sure where you got that idea. Unless I am grossly mistaken, the LP has no problem with inheritance as it is practiced today (minus estate taxes, etc....)

I've never heard they feel it should be a land grab. Maybe me omitting inheritance from my list of ways to obtain land was your reason for stating this. If that is so, I apologize, it was just an over-sight on my part.
 
Re: Re: re initiation of force and initial property ownership

Diezel said:


I'm not quite sure where you got that idea. Unless I am grossly mistaken, the LP has no problem with inheritance as it is practiced today (minus estate taxes, etc....)

I've never heard they feel it should be a land grab. Maybe me omitting inheritance from my list of ways to obtain land was your reason for stating this. If that is so, I apologize, it was just an over-sight on my part.

Re-read my question. Somebody without a will, intestate.
 
Re: Re: Re: re initiation of force and initial property ownership

heath said:


Re-read my question. Somebody without a will, intestate.

I didn't pick up on that, sorry. It is not a common word used here.

Are you also stating this same person has no living relatives at all? (because if that person did, will or not, it would still be passed down after it was determined by the court how it should be divided between each relative)

If the person had no living relatives, the government would take the land and sell it at auction. This would be well within their mandate to protect land ownership.

(this is not the official LP line, but what I believe should happen)
 
EvilYeti said:
Does this mean I'm free to murder with impunity, as long as I do it better than anyone else? Or can afford better protection?

You know that isn't the case with libertarianism, and you know perfectly well that isn't what Browne was talking about.

You've been shown before that the Supreme Court has ruled that the police have no duty to protect anyone; all they can do is mop up afterwards. You're not "free to murder," as you can be arrested and put in jail for it. But from the victim's point of view, it's much better for them to be able to have the means of defending themselves from that murderer.

And yet, you still stubbornly refuse to understand.
 
Cain said:
The problem with Libertarians is that they're not willing to go full circle and privatize government. Imagine a society where private defense agencies vie for your hard-earned dollars in a free-market; as opposed to the current bumbling and inefficient government monopoly on force.

This actually happens in reality in many areas today, such as malls and apartment complexes. They hire their own police force. And yes, they are actual police, not just security guards; they have the full power to make arrests etc. And they do indeed have the choice of who is going to run their police force.
 

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