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Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

We have trodden this ground flat: (a) School can be expensive. Education is potentially cheap. Twelve years of enforced non-participation in the workforce imposes enormous opportunity costs on children and taxpayers. On-the-job training is education, and employers will pay people to participate.
(b) State assumption of responsibility for the provision of the public good of charity (in the form of instruction for children whose parents cannot afford school) transforms the free rider problem at the root of public goods analysis but does not eliminate it.

How is it twelve years of enforced non-participation? Are you honestly saying that a one year old could possibly go to work anywhere? Or even a four year old?

US labour law allows children over the age of 12 to be employed with parental permission. There are exceptions for agricultural labour so that traditional family farms, if any still exist, can operate much as they used to. In the United Kingdom, the minimum working age is 13.

Current legislation prohibits children under the age of 14 from getting even a learners' license for a motor vehicle in every single US state; restricted licenses seem to become available on average at 16. This is yet another example of how the modern world has moved on since the days of Napoleon and Nelson. A great many jobs are dependent on driving, either to get to work or because the job involves driving.

Since the US now employs approximately 1.5% (at most 2-3%) of the workforce, while the UK employs 1.52%, it's crystal clear that we are discussing post-agrarian societies. We are also essentially discussing post-industrial societies as the UK manufacturing workforce is now 8.2% while the US manufacturing workforce is under 20%.

In both the US and UK, the manufacturing workforce is highly skilled and well-qualified; without some form of education, none of these workers would be worth employing. Both countries regularly import skilled labour from elsewhere in the world, offloading the cost of educating and training the labourers onto someone else. They also export skilled labour to other countries.

Moreover, both countries export education in considerable quantities, selling education, usually higher education, to foreigners, and establishing offshore campuses for universities and colleges in a great many countries. "Educational services" employ 3% of the US workforce currently, and significant chunks of that workforce are employed in the private sector. 10% of US secondary school students are privately educated, while 2.9% are homeschooled. In the UK, 7% of all school pupils but 18% of over-16s (sixth formers) attend fee-paying independent schools.

The fees for these private schools may well reflect the true cost of a good quality education; they are noticeably higher than the costs to taxpayers of a state education. In the UK, private schools often provide a much broader education than is prescribed in the national curriculum. They also produce a disproportionate number of maths and science A level graduates compared to state schools.

Currently, there is actually a shortage of maths and science teachers in Britain; compared to demand not enough people are going into those disciplines as teachers. This despite blandishments such as special bursaries and subsidies.

Which simply highlights WHY there is mass education in the first place: economies of scale, adjusted to cope with demographic fluctations. Secondary schools have been merged, closed, reopened and expanded on a constant basis in most western societies because of changing conceptions of local demand. The traditional pattern was to go to a much more local primary school then if necessary, travel a short distance to a centralised high school or grammar school. The logic is of course that a larger school can offer specialist teaching with maths teachers who actually know maths, language teachers who know French or Spanish, et cetera.

Homeschooling cannot offer these advantages, which is why three times as many students are sent to private schools in the US, and why 95%+ of students go to a school whereas less than 3% of school-age children are homeschooled. Overwhelmingly, because their parents are retarded religious fundamentalists.

In 2008, the last year for which comparable figures are widely available, the US and UK both spent about 5.5% (5.4% and 5.5%) of their GDP on publicly funded education of all kinds. France spent a similar 5.6%.

Many other countries spent more, either because they are demonstrably poorer (Swaziland 7.5%) or because they invest more, and have prosperous per-capita GDPs (Sweden: 6.8%). Other countries spent less: Japan spent only 3.4%.

Per capita GDP rankings do not correlate very well with the volume of public spending on education. But that is because the large private sectors in the US and UK probably understate the amount those societies are currently spending on education all told.

Every single prosperous society funds a state education system and requires that its residents and citizens educate their children in some form. For any member of the OECD, G7, G8 or whatever to break from this pattern would be regarded as economic suicide.

The current global education system is in effect a hidden subsidy to the private sector. Employers are able to hire workers in whatever field who have been trained at someone else's expense; often the workers' own expense, since they have taken out loans to gain qualifications that will get them better-paying jobs.

The logic of this system is impeccable, because providing in-house primary, secondary or tertiary education would be prohibitively costly for almost all employers. The provision of primary, secondary and tertiary education is best done by a specialist education sector.

Because every OECD etc member state has a state funded education system, and because they are all competing economically in the world market, while their skilled workforces are also marketing themselves on an increasingly global or supra-national basis - especially in the EU - then it's difficult to see how you can possibly hope to abolish compulsory state-funded education when this is a global phenomenon.

The current global economy shows that societies you'd regard as incorrigibly socialist offer higher standards of living in many cases than more free-market oriented societies. Those Scandinavian countries you probably hate so much don't print money in order to finance their welfare states; they earn the money on the world market.

PS Britain has to my knowledge, one of the lowest school-leaving ages of the OECD countries, pegged at 16. The majority stay on until at least 18 and a significant proportion go on to higher education.

If you were serious about your claims you'd at least try to advance a coherent scenario for the school-leaving age to be lowered, in relation to issues like driving age, and the prospects of the resulting horde of footloose teenagers to earn a living somewhere. Because currently they'd likely have enormous problems finding any kind of work.
 
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That would depend on the job. Seems to me there are two concerns: safety and "education".

People genuinely concerned for children's safety will consider relative hospitalization rates for homeschoolers and conventionally schooled children and for children in school and out of school. In Hawaii, juvenile hospitalizations for human-induced trauma (assault, suicide, etc.) fall in summer, when school is not in session.
In any case, for each child, somebody or some body will determine how that child will spend the time between birth and age 18. Some children will fall through the cracks in any system, so the safety concern will depend on relative rates of accident, etc. between the current system and alternatives. There are also trade-offs.

Definition of "education" will either miss much that people commonly accept falls within the term or will be so broad as to be operationally useless. Again, for each child, somebody or some body will decide what, where, and how that child will learn. Policies that give control to parents place control in the hands of people who have specific local knowledge (of the child's individual interests and abilities) and who are most reliably concerned for their well-being.

Do you have a minimum age at which OJT can begin, or do you wish to leave it at the level of "whenever the caregiver decides it should?"
 
1. How is this uncivil?
It's patronizing. That's how it is uncivil. You know that and you continue to patronize. In good faith I've changed some of my terms so as to not to offend you. It's called consideration. Even if you don't find it patronizing, even if that is not your intent, you know that is how you come off and you continue.

Try civility.
 
  1. A.) Outdated. B.) Orwell was a socialist. I'm not a socialist. I think the govt is good for the military and education but bad for most industries.
  2. No more hoop jumping than parochial school. Not providing for an education is cruel and you have no mechanism for providing poor children with an education.
  3. I've explained over and over why this is a problem. Employers will not even hire interns if the intern has no education. When you can show me these programs and how they hire illiterate people I'll consider those.
  4. Try civility.
  5. I note that no private industry is giving out education for free. Making schools private will not solve the problem of needing to hire expensive personnel.
  6. Beggars cannot be choosers. Poor people take what they can get not what they choose.
So, if private industry can compete with the govt why don't they? If they are so much better at providing a better product/service for less then why don't they? Do the union thugs break people's legs?
 
So if it's a job that's safe to do and which requires little or no prior education, then you would accept that 4 or 5 year old children do this work (with the parents approval)?
Sure. Kids have some advantages: light weight (good for going aloft. I just spent an hour in a fifty foot avocado tree), small hands (good, perhaps for certain kinds of surgery), keen hearing, flexibility. Also, as I suggested earlier, something like fluency probably applies to most skills, where the earlier one learns, the better (more fluent) one will be in adulthood. We lose a lot of talent with a standardized one-size-fits-all curriculum.
 
How is it twelve years of enforced non-participation? Are you honestly saying that a one year old could possibly go to work anywhere? Or even a four year old?
See __The Twelve Year Sentence__. Many US States compel children whose parents cannot afford to sacrifice an income to homeschool or to pay the ransom that independent schools call "tuition" to attend institutions operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME from age 6 to age 18. 18-6=12.
 
... Policies that give control to parents place control in the hands of people who have specific local knowledge (of the child's individual interests and abilities) and who are most reliably concerned for their well-being.
For the umpteenth time, the disastrous voucher experiment in Louisiana proves that the above is utterly untrue when put into actual practice.
Here.
Here is what I believe is a complete (no cherry-picking) list of analyses taking advantage of random-assignment experiments of the effect of vouchers on participants. As I’ve previously written, 9 of the 10 analyses show significant, positive effects for at least some subgroups of students.

All of them have been published in peer reviewed journals or were subject to outside peer review by the federal government.

Four of the 10 studies are independent replications of earlier analyses. Cowen replicates Greene, 2001. Rouse replicates Greene, Peterson, and Du. Barnard, et al replicate Peterson and Howell. And Krueger and Zhu also replicate Peterson and Howell. All of these independent replications (except for Krueger and Zhu) confirm the basic findings of the original analyses by also finding positive effects.
 
See __The Twelve Year Sentence__. Many US States compel children whose parents cannot afford to sacrifice an income to homeschool or to pay the ransom that independent schools call "tuition" to attend institutions operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME from age 6 to age 18. 18-6=12.
See, people compel their children to go to school. See, if independent schools can compete for less why don't they? There is a fortune to be made. I don't believe any state requires children to go to public school.

You want people to believe that private/parochial/independent schools will provide a cheaper and better product if there were no state run compulsory schools. But with all that money to be made there is an open question, why don't private institutions compete right now?

  1. Almost all children are compelled to go to school (either by their parents, guardians or the state). Children in state run compulsory schools do the same work that is performed by children in parochial/private/independent schools.
  2. Private enterprise values the education derived from state run compulsory schools.
  3. Private enterprise has not stepped up to compete with state run compulsory schools in any significant way.
And you still have not explained how or why a private institution is going to teach children to read and write as part of an apprentice program (on the job training).



Failure to address points is making it very hard to advance the discussion.
 
See __The Twelve Year Sentence__.

Well, your point is moot when children can potentially work from age 12 in the US, meaning it's a "six year sentence".

Of course, the problem would be finding employers who'd actually pay for 13 year old workers, rather than as is currently the case, exploiting the labour of 23-year old interns.

In the UK, children have to wait to 13 to be able to work, but they can quit school at 16.

Many US States compel children whose parents cannot afford to sacrifice an income to homeschool or to pay the ransom that independent schools call "tuition" to attend institutions operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME from age 6 to age 18. 18-6=12.

Why restrict the discussion to US states? Compulsory education is essentially a global phenomenon and found in all OECD member states. Are teachers unionised in exactly the same way in all OECD member states? All with equal power? Some of those OECD states have thoroughly centralised systems, some don't.

What, specifically, do the teachers' unions do that makes them so evil in your eyes? It doesn't strike me that they have an absolute lock on the system in the US, because the nature of the system is it rests on a compromise between taxpayers' conflicting interests to want good schools for their children but also to want to pay the least amount of taxes possible.

Accordingly, local and state governments have every incentive to monitor the school systems for financial waste, and to ensure as far as is possible that standards are met. This of course is further overseen by the federal government who provide a lot of the cash, and therefore have the same interests.

There are many possible education systems; god knows enough have been tried over the last 200 years. Many countries still stream their students and direct them into grammar schools for university preparation, versus technical/secondary modern streams for those unlikely to go to university. The catch is deciding when to stream.

There are all sorts of reforms that could be enacted without throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
 
What counts as definitive these days.
It does. If one person gains and no one loses, that's a gain. The requirement that everyone gain means no change. The best is the enemy of the good. Economic literacy usually implies recognition that most evolutionary change is incremental.
A hole in the head will result in significant, positive effects for at least some subgroups. I would not recommend it if your cephalic is not in need of medical attention though.
Since Randfan won't follow links to adverse information, here:...
These 6 studies conclude that all groups of student participants experienced reading or math achievement gains and/or increased likelihood of graduating from high school as a result of vouchers:...
...
These 3 studies conclude that at least one important sub-group of student participants experienced achievement gains from the voucher and no subgroup of students was harmed:...
...
This 1 study concludes that no sub-group of student participants experienced achievement gains from the voucher:
Krueger, Alan B., and Pei Zhu. 2004. “Another Look at the New York City School Voucher Experiment,” The American Behavioral Scientist 47 (5):658–698.
So, unlike the hole in the head, all effects are positive or neutral. No loss.
 
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... Policies that give control to parents place control in the hands of people who have specific local knowledge (of the child's individual interests and abilities) and who are most reliably concerned for their well-being.
For the umpteenth time, the disastrous voucher experiment in Louisiana proves that the above is utterly untrue when put into actual practice.
Here.
Here is what I believe is a complete (no cherry-picking) list of analyses taking advantage of random-assignment experiments of the effect of vouchers on participants. As I’ve previously written, 9 of the 10 analyses show significant, positive effects for at least some subgroups of students.

All of them have been published in peer reviewed journals or were subject to outside peer review by the federal government.

Four of the 10 studies are independent replications of earlier analyses. Cowen replicates Greene, 2001. Rouse replicates Greene, Peterson, and Du. Barnard, et al replicate Peterson and Howell. And Krueger and Zhu also replicate Peterson and Howell. All of these independent replications (except for Krueger and Zhu) confirm the basic findings of the original analyses by also finding positive effects.
That has nothing to do with either your original assertion, or my reply to that assertion.
Readers will have to assess that for themselves. I don't see how the dots could be any closer together. Vouchers expand the range of options available to parents beyond the confines of schools operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel.
 
Failure to address points is making it very hard to advance the discussion.
I agree.
See, in statistics words like "anecdote" have specific meanings. It's your failure to grasp the point being made that caused me to point out that you should learn a bit about the subject before you start spouting off on it.
You made a claim. Please provide the meaning of "anecdote" that's "specific" to statistics. Let's have author, title, edition, and page number.

It was thirty years ago but I don't recall that any of my statistics texts defined "anecdote". The practical statistics classes discuss sources of sample bias. The theoretical classes discuss the relation between sample size and the distribution of sample measures around theoretical population measures (mean, variance, mode, etc.).
Did they define Anecdotal evidence Mine sure as hell did....
Prove it: "Let's have author, title, edition, and page number."
Wikipedia does not qualify as a specialist statistical reference here.
Sorry, not playing your game. I've given you scholarly references (every wikipedia reference as a primary source).
Your Statistics class used Wikipedia at the textbook? Somehow I doubt that.
Title = ___
Author = ___.

Oh, and:...
I have asked numerous times on Education-related threads and healthcare-related threads the following questions:
1. From State (government, generally) operation (or subsidization) of which industries does society as a whole benefit? You may suppose either a dichotomous classification, A={x:x is an unlikely candidate for State operation (or subsidy)} and B={x:x is a likely candidate for State operation (or subsidy} or a continuum...
(Highly unlikely)-1___________._________+1(highly likely)
2. What considerations determine an industry's classification of position on the continuum?
 
And you still have not explained how or why a private institution is going to teach children to read and write as part of an apprentice program (on the job training).

Also, why would a private institutions teach basic understanding of how the government of their country, or legal system worked when what they need is someone to work the widgit machine?
 
Also, why would a private institutions teach basic understanding of how the government of their country, or legal system worked when what they need is someone to work the widgit machine?

which prompts another question: will the voting age be lowered in the new post-slavery utopia? What about the legal age to consume alcohol? And if children aged 10 should be allowed to work why shouldn't the new post-slavery US Army recruit child soldiers?
 
Vouchers expand the range of options available to parents beyond the confines of schools operated by dues-paying members of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel.

So? That doesn't support your claim that this "place control in the hands of people who have specific local knowledge (of the child's individual interests and abilities) and who are most reliably concerned for their well-being."

You are begging the question.
 
We agree here. That's why putting the on-the-job training out of bounds is "a bad thing". School and employment differ in that (a) children in school are not paid and (b) employment is voluntary.

Please read this.

Compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery.


No we do not as you are fully aware please don't libel me by editing my comments and misrepresenting them.:mad:
 
Essentially, the role of the educational system is to, in conjunction with parents/guardians, prepare children for their future participation in the wider society - not just narrowly training them for employment.

Fully functioning members of society need to know more than just basic literacy and numeracy - they should know how the system of government works and the legal system so that they are aware of how to preven their own exploitation;

As there is more to life than just work - an overview of the arts is important so that people can enjoy themselves in a wide variety of ways; and

And the sciences can give an understanding of how and why things work the way they do.

The list goes on.

Putting John and Jane to work at a menial job and calling it an education is grossly unfair to those kids, and to society as a whole.
 

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