Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

(Malcolm): "The world is a pile of anecdotes (observations, data)."
(RandFan): "Please to find out what statistical significance is and when you are finished there then look up Optimum Sample Size. People much smarter than most if not all on this forum figured this all out a long, long time ago. No need for this silly equivocation."

Which relates to what? I suspect that I've taken more Combinatorics (1 course, three credit hours), Probability Theory (2 courses, 6 credit hours) and Statistics (3 classes, 9 credit hours) classes than has RandFan. RandFan immediately demonstrates that he does not understand the point: as soon as you reach for terms like "statistical significance" you have left the realm of raw data (anecdotes) for statistical summaries of data. Theory summarizes data (anecdotes).

 

[RandFan]

Which relates to what? I suspect that I've taken more Combinatorics (1 course, three credit hours), Probability Theory (2 courses, 6 credit hours) and Statistics (3 classes, 9 credit hours) classes than has RandFan. RandFan immediately demonstrates that he does not understand the point: as soon as you reach for terms like "statistical significance" you have left the realm of raw data (anecdotes) for statistical summaries of data. Theory summarizes data (anecdotes).

Until you demonstrate a statisticaly significant sample size all you have is anecdote. That is the context of what is being said. See, in statistics words like "anecdote" have specific meanings. It's your failure to grasp the point being made that caused me to point out that you should learn a bit about the subject before you start spouting off on it.

 

[RandFan]

Flat false. See the abundant evidence that relates compulsory attendance to negative social outcomes. The success of homeschoolers is pretty well accepted. In Hawaii, juvenile arrests FALL when school is NOT in session. Juvenile hospitalizations for human-induced trauma FALL when school is NOT in session.RandFan immediately contradicts himself:...No. Economic freedom promotes advances many other laudable goals. We agree there. That's hardly "counter". So why compulsory attendance statutes (which degrade economic freedom)? Because, although "we" cannot stop being compassionate social creatures, the processes which select the people who direct the world's territorial extortion rackets (i.e., governments) select sociopaths who very much CAN stop being compassionate creatures possessed of empathy, and State-worshipful indoctrination centers are just too useful for these creatures to resist, even for policy makers in governments of a free-market inclination. We disagree. Crony capitalism is winning: the GM bailout, Solyndra, TARP, The NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel.

Anyone who thinks otherwise simply hasn't looked at history and the current state of affairs.

Show your work. I've listed the nations highest in economic freedom and I've listed nations that have compulsory education. They match. Same with GDP. Same with HDI. Hell, you pick the index. You list the nations.

The facts speak for themselves. Where's your evidence? You can talk the talk but do you have any practical evidence (where are these bright and shinny nations)?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

People much smarter than most if not all on this forum figured this all out a long, long time ago. No need for this silly equivocation.

Tell that to ANT, who's rebuttal to Einstein and Becker amounted to "They're old!"

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Show your work. I've listed the nations highest in economic freedom and I've listed nations that have compulsory education. They match. Same with GDP. Same with HDI. Hell, you pick the index. You list the nations.

Totalitarian (very un-free) States also have compulsory schooling. Suppose you discovered that a majority of Nobel-winning physicists had consumed alcohol to the point of intoxication at least once in their lives. Would you conclude that that's a necessary condition for success in physics?

The facts speak for themselves. Where's your evidence? You can talk the talk but do you have any practical evidence (where are these bright and shinny nations)?

Abundant evidence supports the following generalizations:
1. As institutions take from individual parents the power to determine for their own children the choice of curriculum and the pace and method of instruction, overall system performance falls, and
2. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically-adept parents.

 

[RandFan]

Tell that to ANT, who's rebuttal to Einstein and Becker amounted to "They're old!"

I'll let her speak for herself. I trust that the two of us would not have any disagreement over the importance of statistically significant sample size.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

... See, in statistics words like "anecdote" have specific meanings.

You made a claim. Please provide the meaning of "anecdote" that's "specific" to statistics. Let's have author, title, edition, and page number.

It was thirty years ago but I don't recall that any of my statistics texts defined "anecdote". The practical statistics classes discuss sources of sample bias. The theoretical classes discuss the relation between sample size and the distribution of sample measures around theoretical population measures (mean, variance, mode, etc.).

 

[A'isha]

Tell that to ANT, who's rebuttal to Einstein and Becker amounted to "They're old!"

No, it amounted to "they're irrelevant to this discussion".

 

[RandFan]

Totalitarian (very un-free) States also have compulsory schooling. Suppose you discovered that a majority of Nobel-winning physicists had consumed alcohol to the point of intoxication at least once in their lives. Would you conclude that that's a necessary condition for success in physics?Abundant evidence supports the following generalizations:
1. As institutions take from individual parents the power to determine for their own children the choice of curriculum and the pace and method of instruction, overall system performance falls, and
2. Political control of school harms most the children of the least politically-adept parents.

Malcolm, for over 2,000 years we have been conducting an experiment. It's called civilization. Large societies. After all of that time we have a pretty good idea what works best and what doesn't. Communism/statism doesn't work because it ignores the personal desire for freedom and varied individual drive. Laissez-faire capitalism doesn't work because most people are endowed with empathy. They don't want to see people fall through the cracks.

So, what do we have? The most successful nations are democratic with the citizens working with their leaders have crafted some mix of govt regulation, fiscal policy, monetary policy, social welfare, public education and public health care.

So, again, pick what you think are the 10 top nations and I think you will be surprised to find that few if any of them take your ideas seriously. Not even America which sports some of the wealthiest people on the planet making record profits as we speak.

Oh, and don't forget, some of our greatest economic expansion came after FDR's reforms. You can claim the economic expansion was in spite of the reforms but where is your correlation with your data? Where are the nations that got rid of compulsory education and are out competing the rest of the world?

Here's a list. Which nations rated highest in education are not compulsory?

 

[RandFan]

You made a claim. Please provide the meaning of "anecdote" that's "specific" to statistics. Let's have author, title, edition, and page number.

It was thirty years ago but I don't recall that any of my statistics texts defined "anecdote". The practical statistics classes discuss sources of sample bias. The theoretical classes discuss the relation between sample size and the distribution of sample measures around theoretical population measures (mean, variance, mode, etc.).

Did they define Anecdotal evidence Mine sure as hell did.

Accurate determination of whether an anecdote is "typical" requires statistical evidence.

"Requires".

^ p. 75 of Psychology: Themes and Variations by Wayne Weiten
^ p. 25 in Research in Psychology: Methods and Design, by C. James Goodwin.

Anecdotes vs statistics – it isn't a fair fight

Anecdotal Evidence

Anecdotes that are not backed up with systematic and rigorous comparative data are not trusted. Anecdotes are the weakest form of evidence, but they are often the most persuasive. Even scientists can be moved by a telling anecdote that contradicts a mass of statistical evidence.

 

[SezMe]

This thread was kinda interesting until Malcolm completely diverted the discussion with his tired old song-and-dance.

 

[RandFan]

This thread was kinda interesting until Malcolm completely diverted the discussion with his tired old song-and-dance.

It's his favorite dog and pony show but it was exposed as spurious a long time ago. The dog and pony show is a rhetorical trick using logic and a bit of sleight of hand. If A = C and B = C then A = C. What Malcolm conveniently leaves out of his equation is that slavery isn't simply *defined as compulsory anymore than gold is defined as metal.

Slavery → Compulsory
Education → Compulsory
Education ⇒ Slavery

Gold → Metal
Lead → Metal
Lead ⇒ Gold

*

Slavery is a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced to work.

^ Laura Brace (2004). The Politics of Property: Labour, Freedom and Belonging. Edinburgh University Press. pp. 162–. ISBN 978-0-7486-1535-3. Retrieved May 31, 2012.

I went to public school. I was never treated as property by the school. They did not buy me. They did not sell me. They did not own me. On the contrary I was given a free education.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

It's his favorite dog and pony show but it was exposed as spurious a long time ago. The dog and pony show is a rhetorical trick using logic and a bit of sleight of hand. If A = C and B = C then A = C. What Malcolm conveniently leaves out of his equation is that slavery isn't simply *defined as compulsory anymore than gold is defined as metal.

Slavery → Compulsory
Education → Compulsory
Education ⇒ Slavery

Gold → Metal
Lead → Metal
Lead ⇒ Gold

That's a blatantly dishonest misrepresentation of the argument. Compulsory attendance at school is a subset of compulsory, unpaid labor. If compulsory, unpaid labor is slavery, then compulsory school attendance is slavery.

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I went to public school. I was never treated as property by the school. They did not buy me. They did not sell me. They did not own me. On the contrary I was given a free education.

Markets in people are not a defining characteristic of slavery. No one bought and sold zeks in the katorga (lethal, special regime camps) of the Kolyma River camp system. Would you call zeks slaves or not? A child born to slave parents in Alabama c 1800 who then labored on that plantation until death in 1859 would have been a slave, just as much as rotweiler puppies are the property of the owner of the bitch who delivered them.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

You made a claim. Please provide the meaning of "anecdote" that's "specific" to statistics. Let's have author, title, edition, and page number.

Did they define Anecdotal evidence Mine sure as hell did.

Prove it: "Let's have author, title, edition, and page number."
Wikipedia does not qualify as a specialist statistical reference here.

 

[tyr_13]

Compulsory attendance at school is a subset of compulsory, unpaid labor.

No it isn't. Such a blatantly false statement betrays your argument as baseless.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

(Malcolm): "Compulsory attendance at school is a subset of compulsory, unpaid labor."

No it isn't. Such a blatantly false statement betrays your argument as baseless.

Laws mandate attendance at school. That is, attendance is compulsory. Students are not paid. In school, teachers (overseers) assign classwork and homework.
Compulsory, unpaid labor.

 

[thaiboxerken]

(Malcolm): "Compulsory attendance at school is a subset of compulsory, unpaid labor."
Laws mandate attendance at school. That is, attendance is compulsory. Students are not paid. In school, teachers (overseers) assign classwork and homework.
Compulsory, unpaid labor.

Keep trying, but you'll never replace Colbert.

 

[Niche Geek]

Malcolm,

Does your definition of slavery require the specific absence of monetary compensation?

If guesswork is involved in completing a puzzle does that make it a potential candidate for slavery as well, assuming I can show that it was compulsory as I had no really logical way to solve it otherwise.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Children are slaves to their parents if they're forced to wash dishes without pay.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Malcolm,

Does your definition of slavery require the specific absence of monetary compensation?¹If guesswork is involved in completing a puzzle does that make it a potential candidate for slavery as well, assuming I can show that it was compulsory as I had no really logical way to solve it otherwise.²

1. Compensation is a matter of degree. Unless overseers wanted to kill their slaves (e.g., the politicals in the Kolyma special regime camps), they fed their slaves. The test of whether or not compenstion is enough to make labor adequately paid or not is whether or not the worker stays on the job without duress (compulsion).
2. Strange interpretation of "compulsory". Who set you this puzzle task? Are you saying that you're your own slave?