Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[A'isha]

There's no practical way to abolish parents without eliminating humanity from the planet. Education policy makers offer supplements to or substitutions for parent control.

More dodging.

How is a child's motivation to learn different when it's the parent doing the compelling versus a teacher doing the compelling?

Why do you claim to be against the teaching of young students in a mass classroom setting by someone other than their parents that a state institution has determined to be qualified to be an educator without any input from parents, and yet are apparently perfectly fine with Eugene (from your anecdote) being taught in a mass classroom setting by a non-parent teacher that a state institution has determined to be qualified as an educator without any input from parents?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

More dodging.

How is a child's motivation to learn different when it's the parent doing the compelling versus a teacher doing the compelling?

Love.

Why do you claim to be against the teaching of young students in a mass classroom setting by someone other than their parents that a state institution has determined to be qualified to be an educator without any input from parents, and yet are apparently perfectly fine with Eugene (from your anecdote) being taught in a mass classroom setting by a non-parent teacher that a state institution has determined to be qualified as an educator without any input from parents?

Self-selection and age-graded assignment by remote authorities have systematically different effects.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

... In the conspiracy forums, those who don't buy into the conspiracy are typically assumed by the paranoid to be "shills". It's ad hominem.

Paid shills defend the cartel's interests on internet forums. It's the only possible explanation.

 

[A'isha]

Love.

That's the same emotion that motivates a lot of teachers, too. They sure don't do it for the money, your bizarre accusations of cartel-ism notwithstanding.

Self-selection and age-graded assignment by remote authorities have systematically different effects.

How is that relevant, given that Eugene was not affected by those things? Why, if the system already works the way you apparently want it to (as evinced by your own anecdote), are you complaining?

 

[A'isha]

Paid shills defend the cartel's interests on internet forums. It's the only possible explanation.

What does Cleon's completely accurate observation have to do with your insultingly fallacious accusation?

 

[Border Reiver]

Paid shills defend the cartel's interests on internet forums. It's the only possible explanation.

Would this be an accurate job description then?

 

[Belz...]

Love.

I see you have no children.

 

[Belz...]

Paid shills defend the cartel's interests on internet forums. It's the only possible explanation.

Yes. The only explanation for disagreement is that people are stupid, evil or on payroll.

No one EVER disagrees with you for any other reason, on any topic.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

What does Cleon's completely accurate observation have to do with your insultingly fallacious accusation?

It's standard procedure around here to attribute malign motives or indifference to the other side of the argument when the reality is we have different conceptions of how to achieve the desired ends (medical care, education, equitable and wealthy society etc). I cite Cleon to rub the bigoted moderator's nose in it.

 

[A'isha]

It's standard procedure around here to attribute malign motives or indifference to the other side of the argument when the reality is we have different conceptions of how to achieve the desired ends (medical care, education, equitable and wealthy society etc).

Yes, that would be an accurate description of what you're doing.

I cite Cleon to rub the bigoted moderator's nose in it.

Rub his nose in what, the fact that he was entirely correct?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Would this be an accurate job description then?

Nice catch. Thanks. I ran into a real paid shill once (he replied from the office of the organization with which he claimed to have no connection to an email from me to that organization). Hookers use personals. Is it so hard to imagine that the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel has shills around here?

 

[A'isha]

Can you please try to stick to the topic at hand instead of calling people "paid shills" and hijacking the thread with your "but someone in a different thread discussing something else entirely did it too!" lame justification for it?

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Love.Self-selection and age-graded assignment by remote authorities have systematically different effects.

How is that relevant, given that Eugene was not affected by those things? Why, if the system already works the way you apparently want it to (as evinced by your own anecdote), are you complaining?

It's quite relevant because through self-selection (Eugene chose the courses) Eugene escaped age-graded assignment.

 

[A'isha]

It's quite relevant because through self-selection (Eugene chose the courses) Eugene escaped age-graded assignment.

Yes, he was allowed to choose. Which is what you've been arguing for, right?

Therefore mission accomplished, thread over.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Why, if the system already works the way you apparently want it to (as evinced by your own anecdote), are you complaining?

I explained that in the blog post; the system works for prodigies in Math and Music. The current system will not similarly accommodate a prodigy in culinary arts or auto mechanics or animal training.

 

[RandFan]

I explained that in the blog post; the system works for prodigies in Math and Music. The current system will not similarly accommodate a prodigy in culinary arts or auto mechanics or animal training.

I just want to understand. Bill gates, Steve Jobs, Steve Wozniak, Steve Balmer, all succeed because they were not educated in the current system? James Randi was a prodigy. He dropped out of school altogether. I think child prodigies can benefit from the current system but I think many don't need it to succeed. I think there should be more options for parents but none of that informs us that we need to get rid of state run compulsory schools.

The problem has nothing to do with prodigies, it has to do with those who are not prodigies. You've not explained how they would be educated.

 

[A'isha]

I explained that in the blog post; the system works for prodigies in Math and Music.

There's that magic word, prodigies.

The current system will not similarly accommodate a prodigy in culinary arts or auto mechanics or animal training.

Why do you think those things are in any way comparable to Math and Music (and English - unlike Eugene, the school I attended had a fixed schedule, which allowed me to attend college English courses during high school)?

EDIT: And why do you think the current system will not similarly accommodate a prodigy in culinary arts or auto mechanics or animal training? Do you know of any budding auto mechanic prodigies who were denied the opportunity and forced to continue attending public school with no other opportunities being given to them?

 

[Border Reiver]

I explained that in the blog post; the system works for prodigies in Math and Music. The current system will not similarly accommodate a prodigy in culinary arts or auto mechanics or animal training.

Actually here in Ontario, a student could withdraw from the public school system with little more than a letter from the parents or guardians stating that the child will be homeschooled, and be homeschooled, or enrolled in a private school, etc. Entry into a culinary arts or other educational facility would be based on that school's entry requirements (and paying the tuition).

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

... the system works for prodigies in Math and Music. The current system will not similarly accommodate a prodigy in culinary arts or auto mechanics or animal training.

Why do you think those things are in any way comparable to Math and Music ...?

Why suppose that assumption of responsibility for that judgment by agents of the largest extortion racket in your locality (the State) enhances the well-being of anyone but agents of the largest extortion racket in your locality?
Oh, right...

I, at least, am completely fine with private schools, parochial schools, and even home schools existing alongside public schools. Just as long as all of them are held to the same educational standards and curriculum requirements.

Add access to the same level of tax subsidization, per pupil, and I'd accept that as a decent compromise.

No. If parents want to educate their kids someplace different, they're perfectly free to do that. On their own dime.

Unless government (organized violence) is a good in itself, why this restriction?

 

[A'isha]

Why suppose that assumption of responsibility for that judgment by agents of the largest extortion racket in your locality (the State) enhances the well-being of anyone but agents of the largest extortion racket in your locality?

...because it does? As we've been trying to tell you, compulsory mass education benefits children and it benefits employees.

Unless government (organized violence) is a good in itself, why this restriction?

Because we've seen what the alternative is, and it's kinda bad for everyone except an elite, moneyed few.