Split Thread Does compulsory schooling equate to slavery? (Split from: "Liberal Fallacies" thread)

[Dancing David]

That's another wild misrepresentation of the argument.

The world is a pile of anecdotes (observations, raw data). People attach words and numbers to observations. Various mathematical operations on numbers yield statistics. So far, David's demand for "metrics" remains unclear to me. That is, I have no idea what he wants. Word frequency counts of the appearance of "school" in relation to other words? What? How would that advance the discussion of education policy?

Start with what Becker said that is relevant to employers not wanting to train their employees.

 

[RandFan]

The way it was explained to me, there are no numbers in nature...

"In nature"? What do you think the human brain is? Unnatural? The human brain is the product of natural evolutionary processes. There is nothing unnatural about the brain. If you are thinking of a number then you have just demonstrated that there are numbers in nature. I think the term you are looking for is "a priori" as opposed to "nature".

...therefore there is no such thing as quantitative evidence, i.e., metrics.

So a lion cannot distinguish between 1 antelope and the rest of the heard? Numbers might not be a priori but the perception of quantity is found throughout the animal kingdom.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Which is why I asked, what did it have to do with my saying that employers do not want to train workers. I am not understanding that. How does Becker relate to that?

One alternative to OJT is school. Becker defines "school" as an institution whose principal product is education. As the term "principal" indicates, the apparent dichotomous classification {school, job--as in "on-the-job) is more accurately characterized as a continuum.

 

[A'isha]

So a lion cannot distinguish between 1 antelope and the rest of the heard? Numbers might not be a priori but the perception of quantity is found throughout the animal kingdom.

I can only count to hrair.

 

[RandFan]

I can only count to hrair.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

Malcolm, you seem to have gone down a side alley arguing about the concept of statistical significance.

RandFan initiated this sideline. Or you could say that he carried the ball foreward after someone characterized the evidence I present as "anecdotal" and I responded that the world is a pile of anecdotes.

I have seen nobody argue that homeschooling is bad for everybody - indeed in the UK at least it is perfectly legal to homeschool one's child but my understanding is that certain standards have to be met.

I am describing the UK as that is what I know. Maybe someone in the US could say whether this is vastly different from this situation. From what I have read I doubt it, but as we are discussing the concept here, this is an example of a system where attendance at any particular type of school is not mandated.

Homeschooling restrictions vary from State to State within the US. Some States require that homeschooling families have at least one certified teacher as a parent. Some mandate evidence of performance.

It is the education that is compulsory, not attendance at state school.

Education (by any measure of performancer above "comatose" cannot be mandatory; the human and canine IQ curves overlap. If education were mandatory, thousands of the NEA/AFT/AFSCME cartel's schools would face RICO indictments and their personnel facing prison.

Describing this as slavery is just insane.

Noting the effects of malignant effects of compulsion in the education industry is quite sane.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

One more time Malcolm, humans are not born with responsible brains to make choices that are best for them. Which is why parents compel their children to do their chores and go to school. Without that there is not a whole lot of education. So yeah, I am the one advocating for education.

No; you're advocating compulsory attendance at school. We could backtrack and establish this if you want.

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

As for the discussion about statistical significance - Malcolm, your argument seems to be that some people thrive with homeschooling (no dispute there). What doesn't follow is that this is what should happen for everyone.

Not much disagreement here.
(Malcolm Kirkpatrick): " I'm an advocate for a reduction in the use of remotely-directed interpersonal violence and threats of interpersonal violence (i.e., government) in the education industry. I'm mostly indifferent as to what arrangements evolve as the State retreats from the education industry.
...
For each child, somebody or some body will decide how that child spends the time between birth and age 18. Parent control of education does for children what the system of title and contract law does for other resources: unite local knowledge and control with the incentive to use resources in socially beneficial ways."

 

[thaiboxerken]

Did you guys miss where Malcolm jumped the shark by claiming that public education is slavery?

 

[RandFan]

No; you're advocating compulsory attendance at school. We could backtrack and establish this if you want.

Nations with the highest literacy rates have compulsory attendance for school. I gave you a list of nations rated for their education and gave you an opportunity to pick one that wasn't compulsory.

I AM the one advocating education. Please feel free to back track all you like. I have the facts on my side.

 

[RandFan]

Arguments you ignore:

Having 24 hour control over another person's life is a defining characteristic. It's called ownership. It doesn't matter if the slave was paid for. If you are my legal property then you are my slave. If I can kill you for not doing as I ask then you are my slave.

Your argument fails. Compulsory != slavery.

• The free market values public education.
• Rich people value private education.
• You need a diploma or GED to get a job.

Your fatal error is to fail to take into account that humans aren't born capable of surviving without parental supervision and they won't get far in life without an education. Which is why most if not all modern liberal democracies compel their children to get an education.

1. Humans are born incapable of taking care of themselves.
2. It's the parents responsibility to prepare their child for adulthood. This includes teaching them hygiene, safety, and as much about reality and how to think as possible (public education).
3. The free market values public education.

You freely admit that there is a gradient between a child who does not have the cognitive ability to make responsible choices and the adult that child will become. Having to take out the trash and wash dishes is trivial compared to what a child will learn at school. Public education is slavery the way gold is lead. A point of comparison does not a valid analogy make.

It is undisputed that lacking a high school diploma can hurt a worker in terms of the salary that he can earn over his lifetime. Not having a high school diploma affects not only the individual, but also the wider community since the individual generates less revenue in taxes because he has a lower-paying job. He also has less money to spend at local businesses than if he had a job with a higher salary, which affects the economy.
Read more: Pay Scale for High School Diploma vs. Without One | eHow.com

Still reminding people why your argument fails.

 

[RandFan]

RandFan initiated this sideline. Or you could say that he carried the ball foreward after someone characterized the evidence I present as "anecdotal" and I responded that the world is a pile of anecdotes.

Your evidence was "only" anecdotal. It was not statistically significant. I've explained this to you over and over and given you tons of links by experts in their field why anecdotal evidence is not statistically significant. But it appears you ignore evidence if it doesn't fit your bias.

Anecdotes vs statistics

Anecdotal evidence - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Plural of Anecdote is Not Data - Skeptical Medicine

 

[jimbob]

Malcolm, you seem to have gone down a side alley arguing about the concept of statistical significance.

RandFan initiated this sideline. Or you could say that he carried the ball foreward after someone characterized the evidence I present as "anecdotal" and I responded that the world is a pile of anecdotes.

This was the exchange that I was referring to, where you seem to be casting doubt on what wikipedia said. In this case, the wiki article is pretty accurate, so is a reasonable source to quote - unless you dispute what it actually said.

You made a claim. Please provide the meaning of "anecdote" that's "specific" to statistics. Let's have author, title, edition, and page number.

Did they define Anecdotal evidence Mine sure as hell did.

Prove it: "Let's have author, title, edition, and page number."
Wikipedia does not qualify as a specialist statistical reference here.

 

[Dancing David]

One alternative to OJT is school. Becker defines "school" as an institution whose principal product is education. As the term "principal" indicates, the apparent dichotomous classification {school, job--as in "on-the-job) is more accurately characterized as a continuum.

And so?

Employers do not want to provide it, so it was a side trip and an irrelevant one.

Employers do not want to train employees, they want them with the skills in place. The reason is not a lack of government subsidies, unless you can support that. The reason is that employers do not want to spend the money and so far have not decided to use contracts to retain employees that they do train. They don't want the expense, facilities, staff and equipment.

 

[Dancing David]

No; you're advocating compulsory attendance at school. We could backtrack and establish this if you want.

So run for office and change it.

 

[Dancing David]

Did you guys miss where Malcolm jumped the shark by claiming that public education is slavery?

"That's one small shark for [a] man, one giant shark for mankind."

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

(Malcolm Kirkpatrick): "One alternative to OJT is school. Becker defines 'school' as an institution whose principal product is education. As the term "principal" indicates, the apparent dichotomous classification {school, job--as in "on-the-job) is more accurately characterized as a continuum."
(David): "And so? Employers do not want to provide it, so it was a side trip and an irrelevant one. Employers do not want to train employees, they want them with the skills in place. The reason is not a lack of government subsidies, unless you can support that. The reason is that employers do not want to spend the money and so far have not decided to use contracts to retain employees that they do train. They don't want the expense, facilities, staff and equipment."

So the distinction between "employers" and "schools" breaks down. So generalizations like "employers do not want to train employees, they want them with the skills in place" fail. Of course "they (employers) don't want the expense, facilities, staff and equipment of training facilities". Steel makers would also like to have tax-subsidized raw ore and tax-subsidized energy to heat the furnace. Plate glass manufacturers would like to have tax-subsidized supplies of quartz sand, lime, and energy. That argument fails in most cases, since some unsubsidized industry must supply the subsidies.

The case of investment in human capital is unusual in that in a market-oriented legal environment, employees can end an employment relation and employers may lose their investment in training. The defense of the current US tax-subsidized, State-operated K-PhD education system relies on the unstated assumption that the combination of tax subsidies and State operation of schools provides the only way around this difficulty.

Futhermore, many employers currently train employees on the job for jobs specific to that employer (e.g., corporate culture, trade secrets).

 

[Malcolm Kirkpatrick]

So run for office and change it.

Public choice theory. Insiders have more at stake than citizens, generally. Until voters accept the case for markets as a general rule (that's what this conversation is about, ultimately) or until the politics of buying votes of insiders fails from lack of cash (as is happening), political contests favor insiders.

 

[RandFan]

Malcolm's bain:

Fact: The free market values public education.

It is undisputed that lacking a high school diploma can hurt a worker in terms of the salary that he can earn over his lifetime. Not having a high school diploma affects not only the individual, but also the wider community since the individual generates less revenue in taxes because he has a lower-paying job. He also has less money to spend at local businesses than if he had a job with a higher salary, which affects the economy.

Facts:

1. Humans are born incapable of taking care of themselves.
2. It's the parents responsibility to prepare their child for adulthood. This requires that they compel their children to work and learn. This includes teaching them hygiene, safety, and as much about reality and how to think as possible (public education).

 

[RandFan]

Public choice theory. Insiders have more at stake than citizens, generally. Until voters accept the case for markets as a general rule (that's what this conversation is about, ultimately) or until the politics of buying votes of insiders fails from lack of cash (as is happening), political contests favor insiders.

Facts:

1. So long as nations with compulsory education are also nations that are highest in literacy rates, GDP, HDI, Economic Freedom, etc, there will be compulsory education in those nations.
2. So long as it's a function of a parents responsibility to prepare a child for life there will be compulsory education in modern liberal democracies

It's an odd quirk of nature that once people figure out what works they keep doing it.