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But what about this theory: The resolution for public GPS is so crude that adding or not adding adjustments for relativity makes no difference in the receivers.

You can easily test that theory for yourself by running the math.

Of course, you're unwilling to learn the math for yourself, so you just assume that your explanation suffices. But, what that means is that somehow everyone who can run the math themselves is either in on the conspiracy, or simply hasn't bothered to do it.

I guess when that undergrad physics student, bored in his dorm room, decides to play around with GPS and time dilation and see the effects it has, just for fun, a light goes off in some secret government monitoring station and a crew is sent out to either bring him into the fold or "silence" him...
 
I know that you won't be satisfied to take my word on this, but that's simply not the case. I actually have a friend who writes GPS receiver software, and I've done a lot of GPS performance analysis myself (for more esoteric types of GPS performance). And I clearly remember working through one particular set of 'real' data and getting answers that were subtly but consistently wrong, and then someone said "relativistic effects!"

So we quickly did the basic relativistic corrections, and I remember thinking "Well, there it is!"
I was managing you that day.
 
Sorry, my BS meter just went off. I don't believe you.

'My' astrophysicist says this...

http://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=497505&postcount=6

That is correct. I checked with my source. He said that the speed of light limit is from the observer's point of view to other objects. That is the same as the linked post from physicsforums.com says.

Ok, so I was wrong about that. But then what about the claim that someone traveling near the speed of light will speed up the entire universe? Isn't that a ludicrous and bogus claim? Such as this image: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/timedilation.gif From: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/sr2.htm
 
You can easily test that theory for yourself by running the math.

Of course, you're unwilling to learn the math for yourself, so you just assume that your explanation suffices. But, what that means is that somehow everyone who can run the math themselves is either in on the conspiracy, or simply hasn't bothered to do it.

I guess when that undergrad physics student, bored in his dorm room, decides to play around with GPS and time dilation and see the effects it has, just for fun, a light goes off in some secret government monitoring station and a crew is sent out to either bring him into the fold or "silence" him...

lol, I guess I could learn how to do that. But that sounds tedious. Can't someone else do that for me? Someone should have done that already and posted the result on the Internet (without being silenced :D).
 
I know that you won't be satisfied to take my word on this, but that's simply not the case. I actually have a friend who writes GPS receiver software, and I've done a lot of GPS performance analysis myself (for more esoteric types of GPS performance). And I clearly remember working through one particular set of 'real' data and getting answers that were subtly but consistently wrong, and then someone said "relativistic effects!"

So we quickly did the basic relativistic corrections, and I remember thinking "Well, there it is!"

No offense, but people on forums can claim all kinds of things. Let's say it's true, then can't they fake the effect from the satellites? How? By having several transmitters on each GPS satellite pointed in different directions and with different signals.
 
lol, I guess I could learn how to do that. But that sounds tedious. Can't someone else do that for me? Someone should have done that already and posted the result on the Internet (without being silenced :D).

If someone else does it, how will you know they don't work for the man and didn't just post some faulty math? If you can't check their work, how will you know?

If you do it yourself, you will know.

Of course, you have to realise that many people certainly have done it themselves, so I wonder what you think stopped them from pointing out that GSP actually doesn't need to make corrections for gravitational time dilation, if you're right that it doesn't?
 
But anyway, proving that the whole world is being run by malicious conspirators by learning and doing some relatively simple calculations is, well, too tedious for Anders. Fair enough.
 
Ok, so I was wrong about that. But then what about the claim that someone traveling near the speed of light will speed up the entire universe? Isn't that a ludicrous and bogus claim? Such as this image: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/timedilation.gif From: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/sr2.htm
Yep, it is a ludicrous and bogus claim. It's also your claim. That you fail to understand what those links of yours mean is your business, not anyone else's.
 
No offense, but people on forums can claim all kinds of things.

That's why you should just go ahead and do the math for yourself. You'll have proved us all wrong, and you can simply post it for anyone to see for themselves...

But, wait, if you do that of course the conspirators will find out and come silence you!
:jaw-dropp

On second thought, you should probably just do the math yourself but keep pretending that you didn't...

Oh, wait, that's probably what you're doing now!

Uh-oh, I think I just exposed you... Sorry Anders! You should probably start running now, but don't forget to put your cell phone in someone else's car to throw them off the chase!
 
But then what about the claim that someone traveling near the speed of light will speed up the entire universe? Isn't that a ludicrous and bogus claim? Such as this image: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/timedilation.gif From: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/sr2.htm

I'm sure you are just getting confused about what is being suggested.

When somebody travels at the speed of light or close to it, massive time dilation occurs. It basically slows down for them relative to the universe - time is still passing for them at normal speed. The rest of the universe is also at it's normal speed. They are just different times relative to each other.

GPS proves this with both relativistic and gravitational time dilation(speed and gravity to make it simplistic).

http://www.astronomy.ohio-state.edu/~pogge/Ast162/Unit5/gps.html
 
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Erock, I read your link

Because an observer on the ground sees the satellites in motion relative to them, Special Relativity predicts that we should see their clocks ticking more slowly (see the Special Relativity lecture). Special Relativity predicts that the on-board atomic clocks on the satellites should fall behind clocks on the ground by about 7 microseconds per day because of the slower ticking rate due to the time dilation effect of their relative motion.

Further, the satellites are in orbits high above the Earth, where the curvature of spacetime due to the Earth's mass is less than it is at the Earth's surface. A prediction of General Relativity is that clocks closer to a massive object will seem to tick more slowly than those located further away (see the Black Holes lecture). As such, when viewed from the surface of the Earth, the clocks on the satellites appear to be ticking faster than identical clocks on the ground. A calculation using General Relativity predicts that the clocks in each GPS satellite should get ahead of ground-based clocks by 45 microseconds per day.

The combination of these two relativitic effects means that the clocks on-board each satellite should tick faster than identical clocks on the ground by about 38 microseconds per day (45-7=38)! This sounds small, but the high-precision required of the GPS system requires nanosecond accuracy, and 38 microseconds is 38,000 nanoseconds. If these effects were not properly taken into account, a navigational fix based on the GPS constellation would be false after only 2 minutes, and errors in global positions would continue to accumulate at a rate of about 10 kilometers each day! The whole system would be utterly worthless for navigation in a very short time. This kind of accumulated error is akin to measuring my location while standing on my front porch in Columbus, Ohio one day, and then making the same measurement a week later and having my GPS receiver tell me that my porch and I are currently about 5000 meters in the air somewhere over Detroit.

The engineers who designed the GPS system included these relativistic effects when they designed and deployed the system. For example, to counteract the General Relativistic effect once on orbit, they slowed down the ticking frequency of the atomic clocks before they were launched so that once they were in their proper orbit stations their clocks would appear to tick at the correct rate as compared to the reference atomic clocks at the GPS ground stations

If I understand this correctly it is saying the atomic clocks on satellites have been artificially altered so that always tell the same time as clocks on earth?

Further would it be true that each clock would have to be individually calibrated depending on the position intended for each satellite?
 
That is correct. I checked with my source. He said that the speed of light limit is from the observer's point of view to other objects. That is the same as the linked post from physicsforums.com says.

Ok, so I was wrong about that. But then what about the claim that someone traveling near the speed of light will speed up the entire universe? Isn't that a ludicrous and bogus claim? Such as this image: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/timedilation.gif From: http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/sr2.htm

This is true and it has been observed. Objects moving close to the speed of light relative to each other will notice the other object experience time at a slower rate. This has been confirmed in the laboratory. High-speed particles decay slower due to this time dilation effect.

Note, that in the case of a Rocket ship moving at .9c away from the Earth, it would see the people on the Earth living slower lives AND the people on the Earth would see the people on the rocket having slower clocks as well. You don't get the effect you linked until the Rocket undergoes acceleration to be more at rest relative to the Earth. Velocity is relative, acceleration isn't, and it is the massive accelerations of Rocket that makes it different from the people on the Earth.

This effect can also be observed by atomic clocks. Ones deeper in Earth's gravity well run more slowly by a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny amount than ones higher up. Gravity is just like acceleration, so this makes sense. This too has been observed of course.
 
If I understand this correctly it is saying the atomic clocks on satellites have been artificially altered so that always tell the same time as clocks on earth?

Correct.

Further would it be true that each clock would have to be individually calibrated depending on the position intended for each satellite?

No, they all run at the same altitude and consequently the same orbital velocity.
 
And I would then tell the child that the bomb went off underwater and so that most of the blast was directed outwards into the water with a small portion of the blast going straight up. Just like you see in a conventional depth charge.



As someone who worked and lived closely with these types of weapons (I even slept about 10' away from enough firepower to make us the 4th most powerful nuclear force all on our own) I can say with no doubt at all that you are clearly delusional and need to up your meds ASAP.

That doesn't explain the clouds near the explosion remaining intact in the video clip I posted.

25673944.jpg


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
This is true and it has been observed. Objects moving close to the speed of light relative to each other will notice the other object experience time at a slower rate. This has been confirmed in the laboratory. High-speed particles decay slower due to this time dilation effect.

Note, that in the case of a Rocket ship moving at .9c away from the Earth, it would see the people on the Earth living slower lives AND the people on the Earth would see the people on the rocket having slower clocks as well. You don't get the effect you linked until the Rocket undergoes acceleration to be more at rest relative to the Earth. Velocity is relative, acceleration isn't, and it is the massive accelerations of Rocket that makes it different from the people on the Earth.

This effect can also be observed by atomic clocks. Ones deeper in Earth's gravity well run more slowly by a tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny amount than ones higher up. Gravity is just like acceleration, so this makes sense. This too has been observed of course.

Not according to this:

http://www.btinternet.com/~j.doyle/SR/timedilation.gif

After traveling for 5 years in a rocket at 90% the speed of light relative to Earth then when returning 10 years has passed on Earth? That's ludicrous. It means that not only will the passengers experience the evolution of Earth speeding up but also that the evolution of the sun and the rest of the entire universe also is speeding up by twice the speed!
 

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