Does anyone else back up William Rodriguez's story?

 
Gravy said:


Oh, I will add this point while I'm here. You said,

c) Sees white smoke, and reports the smell of kerosene.
d) The smell he thought coming from perhaps a burning car in the parking garage above them.
e) Kerosene smell, not a kerosene fire. Burning Kerosene does not produce white smoke.
Click to expand...

I sure wish you had read the other accounts of white smoke, or otherwise done your homework. Kerosene vapors are white.
Click to expand...

Here's a nice example of white smoke from burning kerosene:

26434659f59a5335c.jpg
 
Swing Dangler said:
Source and empirical evidence, please?
Click to expand...


Se previous posts.


Swing Dangler said:
Source? And sifting equates to chemical testing now?
Click to expand...


Curiously, do you actually know anything about 9/11? You seem grossly ignorant.

FBI Article on Evidence Teams at Fresh Kills

Statement for the Record of Michael E. Rolince, Acting Assistant Director in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation

Sorry it was 1.8 million tonnes of debris.



Swing Dangler said:
How many videos captured the event in the basement during or after impact? How many videos captured the first impact?
Click to expand...


Cameras did not have to be in the basement. Any explosion in the basement would have been heard far and wide, and captured by dozens and dozens of cameras. There was a camera recording in the lobby of WTC1 from moments after the first impact until after the collapse of WTC2. Not a single explosion captured.



Swing Dangler said:
White smoke in the tower's basement is now kerosene vapor according to you, or at least your expert, Roger Sanders, Waste Oil Heater article. Well if you want to use Roger Sanders as an expert on JetA fuel vapor, that is your choice. Why you would choose to do so is beyond me. An explanation for the white smoke, I presume. Who is Roger Sanders anyway and how does a waste oil heater prove anything in relation to the topic?
Click to expand...


You do realise that both oil from heaters and Jet-A fuel are kerosene, right?




Swing Dangler said:
And to my suprise, there is not a single mention of JetA fuel vapor in a white smoke form. Well to give you the benefit of the doubt I decided to check out Shepherd, J. E., Explosion of Aviation Kerosene (Jet A) Vapors, CIT Presentation at
NTSB Meeting, October 7, 1997, NTSB Docket No. SA-516, Exhibit No. 20F.
And to my suprise again, not a single mention of jetA fuel vapors being white.
Click to expand...


Is there any reason why they should mention the colour of Jet A vapour?



Swing Dangler said:
I have seen no emperical evidence to support the fireball theory. I have only seem assumptions made by NIST. Assumptions on the fuel that ignited and assumptions on the fuel remaining. NIST to my knowledge has shown no calculations supporting the assumption that a fireball in the basement caused the damage witnessed there.
Click to expand...


Empirical evidence for the WTC events is not possible, unless one were to entirely rebuilt the entire site, rig it with thousands of cameras and sensors, and ram airliners into it.

-Gumboot
 
Is there any chance that you could point out ONE error in Gravy's paper? Just out of curiosity.
Click to expand...
Arturo Grffith, elevator operator, in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz:
Arturo Griffith, a Panamanian, was in a lift at the time of the impact. The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010918/ai_n14406873
The actual quote from source mentions no presence of Marlene Cruz in the elevator.

ALTF4,
Click to expand...
How many times do you have to be told, eyewitness testimony is not empirical evidence.
Again, do you have any empirical evidence that every vehicle entering the garage and basement levels since 1993 was sniffed by bomb sniffing dogs? Alt, you realize that this eyewitness helps my case, correct? The PA was there in 1993 as he states and still a truck bomb was detonated in the basement. Also, the individual in the report was in the South Tower area, not the North Tower.
Not only that, you may want to examine the article below of how Middle Eastern man who attempted to get a fake driver's license had access to the 6 sub levels of the towers.

Security Problem at WTC Towers?
A photo ID pass for Sept. 5 found on one of the men charged with fraudulently obtaining a Tennessee driver's license from a Memphis woman gave him access to the six underground levels of the One World Center building.But which tenant hired Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad, 24, to work on its sprinklers is lost, said Port Authority of New York and New Jersey spokesman Alan Hicks on Friday. Hammad told federal authorities that he was working on the sprinklers six days before the twin towers were brought down by terrorists, court testimony revealed this week. But Hicks said the Port Authority, which owned the building, did its own sprinkler work, and that any other work involving sprinklers would have been arranged by an individual tenant.
"We don't know (which one) because all our records were destroyed in the World Trade Center, as were some of the people who know that," Hicks said.
Small details about the five Middle Eastern men arrested Feb. 5 with Tennessee driver's license examiner Katherine Smith are slowly surfacing. Smith died Sunday in a fiery car crash, a day before she was to appear in court. It appears that Khaled Odtllah of Cordova shared the same 2840 Morning Lake Drive address at different times over the past year with Rocky Hammad, according to an online people finder database. More at the
source: Here
You may want to read more into the details as the Port Authority explains that individual tentents may outsource work. This is yet another way terrorists could have gained access to the interior of the towers bypassing security. Granted it isn't a truck or car entering a garage, however, it is interesting to read how a Middle Eastern man had access to the sublevels of WTC without the Port Authority's knowledge.

Here's a nice example of white smoke from burning kerosene:
Click to expand...
Smoke from burning kerosene is not the same thing as kerosene vapor. You may want to read how kerosene vapor is formed.
And you are aware that that highly refined kerosene is being mixed with liquid oxygen and ignited, aren't you? So in support of Gravy's position, you stating that there was vast amounts of liquid oxygen present in the basement of WTC: North Tower? No wait, in order for Gravy's position to be correct, the fuel had to reach the basement that is already hot enough to produce the vapor in white smoke form and then ....not ignite. I'm sorry but the picture you presented only helps to refute the premise that kerosene vapor is the white smoke in the basement or anywhere else in the towers. I grew up in a house that used a kerosene heater. And strangely enough, not a single time that we lit the heater was white smoke produced. If we reduced the flame in the heater, vast amounts of BLACK smoke was produced, but never white smoke.

Is there any reason why they should mention the colour of Jet A vapour?
Click to expand...
Perhaps you should ask them. If it were white, that would be a sure fire way to alert mechanics to not ignite anything near the white smoke.

Gumbot-FBI Article on Evidence Teams at Fresh Kills
FBI Article on Evidence Teams at Fresh Kills
Statement for the Record of Michael E. Rolince, Acting Assistant Director in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation
Click to expand...
You asked if I were ignorant of 9/11 and of course I'm not. However, I will reflect the same question upon you. In both of those sources, there is not a single mention of the FBI testing for explosive residue. Was that an error on your part or dishonesty?

My question still stands which none have answered:
What would it take to convince you an explosive device was used in the basement?
 
Last edited:
CHF said:
Let's start with a logical reason for a seb-level explosive being used in a top-down collapse. And don't say "to cut the core so that the top would collapse a friggin' hour later."
Click to expand...

If you could repost those 3 things from SLC that would convince you there was an explosive device in the basement, then we can move on to speculation.;)
 
Swing Dangler said:
If you can tell me what would convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels, then I may attempt to answer you question.
Click to expand...

I'm a little newer to the forum so I jump hoops more readily than the rest. I just want a working theory as to why this device was planted and set off. I'm giving you that one went off.This is a big stretch on my part, but i assume that you already believe one was detonated. I didn't see CHF's post, but I like the way he thinks.
 
Swing Dangler said:
If you can tell me what would convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels, then I may attempt to answer you question.
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We already did.

As always, the answer was inconvenient, therefore denied.

Any further questions?
 
3bodyproblem said:
I'm a little newer to the forum so I jump hoops more readily than the rest. I just want a working theory as to why this device was planted and set off. I'm giving you that one went off.This is a big stretch on my part, but i assume that you already believe one was detonated. I didn't see CHF's post, but I like the way he thinks.
Click to expand...

Although I appreciate your statement, please don't give me anything. I'm asking you what it would take to convince you that an explosive device was used in the sublevels of the North Tower: Sublevels absent empirical evidence that would have been destroyed in the collapse?
 
Swing,

are you gonna explain the point of this basement bomb?

Or is it one of those questions (like "who are the terrorists?") that you'd rather not address?
 
What were my 3 requirements again?

IIRC:

- Structural damage consistent with a bomb
- Engineers who back the idea
- Injuries consistent with a bomb blast

And I really would like a reason for this basement bomb being there, if its not too much to ask.
 
SD's refusal to talk about who planted his alleged explosives is a classic case of why Occam's razor is a needed tool for logical thought. The concept that entities should not be expanded beyond necessity is being patently violated here. The existance of explosives in the basements adds, at a bare minimum, the entities of who put them there, and how did they get them there. These are entities must be addressed, yet Swing insists that Occam be bypassed for his exercise of trying to prove one thing is another. That is intellectual cowardice, not science.
 
Speaking for myself, there is no single piece of evidence which would convince me of anything from a scientific point of view. There are, however, things which would make me seriously entertain the idea of bombs in the basement, such as:

* The detection of explosive residue - which could have only come from explosives.
* Damage to the steel remains consistent with a bomb blast.
* A general scientific consensus that there were bombs in the basement.
* Witness reports for which the simplest explanation is bombs in the basement.
* One of the people who planted the bombs to come forward and say, "Hey, guess what I did?!"

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure I could add more if I tried.
 
Swing Dangler said:
<snip>
Arturo Grffith, elevator operator, in freight car 50A with carpenter Marlene Cruz:
Arturo Griffith, a Panamanian, was in a lift at the time of the impact. The whole car shook and juddered as he heard an ominous noise from above. http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_20010918/ai_n14406873
The actual quote from source mentions no presence of Marlene Cruz in the elevator.
Click to expand...

But she was, indeed, in the elevator with Arturo Griffith. There are several sources that confirm this.

Swing Dangler said:
<snip>Again, do you have any empirical evidence that every vehicle entering the garage and basement levels since 1993 was sniffed by bomb sniffing dogs?
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That is not what Alt+F4 said, SwingDangler. You should read more carefully, and for comprehension.

And you might wish to read these as well, while you're at it.

http://www.securitymanagement.com/library/000852.html

http://www.100share.com/World-Trade-Center.htm
 
CHF said:
Swing, are you gonna explain the point of this basement bomb? Or is it one of those questions (like "who are the terrorists?") that you'd rather not address?
Click to expand...
Well CHF, we are back at the same point we were at SLC when you were wanting me to have my paper torn apart by the regulars. So far I've got a kerosene heated stove from some no-name to prove white smoke was kerosene vapor in the basement and elsewhere which is bunk.
I've got a paper referenced to that has many errors and outright distortions for whatever reason.

I've got a bunch of folks that demand empirical evidence for an explosive device but will accept a fireabll excuse without empirical evidence and with plenty of assumptions, and god-like miracles for the excuse to be valid.

I've got many witnesses who were TOLD what they experienced.

I've got many witnesses who thought it was a bomb or were reminded of the 1993 attacks.

I've got a method of delivery conversation used to distract from the facts and testimony.

So far, CHF, I'm not too impressed. I was hoping to come away from here convinced it wasn't an explosive device, but instead I'm even more convinced!

Stay tuned for the speculation part that you are asking for. Some interesting details have just been discovered that make a method of delivery even more plausible.
 
Swing Dangler said:
So far I've got a kerosene heated stove from some no-name to prove white smoke was kerosene vapor in the basement and elsewhere which is bunk.
Click to expand...

What the hell is your problem with this? Are you suggesting that it is impossible to have both unburned kerosene (producing the smell) as well as burned kerosene (producing the white smoke).

An amazing world you must live in where all combustion reactions are 100% efficient with all materials in the area.
 
LashL said:
But she was, indeed, in the elevator with Arturo Griffith. There are several sources that confirm this.

The source used in the paper does not confirm that. And I'm sure you will provide the source that will confirm this so I can retract my statement.


The source that you use in regards to the security operations is not empirical evidence. It is a survey. I'm asking for empirical evidence.

Here you go Kook:
Click to expand...
One suspect of who could have been involved in the basement:
Sakher 'Rocky' Hammad. He had access to all 6 sublevels. He stated he was working on sprinklers, yet Port Authority states they do all of the sprinkler work, but he could have been hired from a tenet. Hammad was busted in a Federal sting for trying to obtain a fake driver's license in Tennessee.
I will post the whole story involving this man if requested.
Click to expand...
 
kookbreaker said:
What the hell is your problem with this? Are you suggesting that it is impossible to have both unburned kerosene (producing the smell) as well as burned kerosene (producing the white smoke).
An amazing world you must live in where all combustion reactions are 100% efficient with all materials in the area.
Click to expand...

One, there is no need to get upset.
Two, lets rid state that nothing is impossible and get that detraction out of the way. You may want to read how kerosene vapor is formed.
Also, you may want to catch the entire thread's comments.
 
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