KelvinG
Master Poster
- Joined
- Sep 8, 2001
- Messages
- 2,387
The best advice ends up being "Don't enlist if you're not prepared to fight."
You have every right to be against a war, but signing up for military service pretty much means you have given away your right to decide whether you want to participate in a war or not. You can argue this is unfair, but it's the way it works.
Now, I realize a lot of people enlist as a way to make money and further their education and don't grasp the reality that they may end up in a combat zone. But, geez, it's the military! Conflict and war are a staple of the military.
You have every right to be against a war, but signing up for military service pretty much means you have given away your right to decide whether you want to participate in a war or not. You can argue this is unfair, but it's the way it works.
Now, I realize a lot of people enlist as a way to make money and further their education and don't grasp the reality that they may end up in a combat zone. But, geez, it's the military! Conflict and war are a staple of the military.
Kodiak
Illuminator
- Joined
- Aug 6, 2001
- Messages
- 3,279
KelvinG said:
And here is the big tie-in between duty and freedom. All US servicemen freely volunteer to join the Armed Forces, and once trained soldiers, have a sworn duty to follow orders, even if those orders result in the loss of one's own life.
Monera Man
New Blood
- Joined
- Jan 12, 2005
- Messages
- 6
Tony said:
-------------------------------------------------------------------
How to Construct a Dishonest Argument:
Step 1- Atttach your argument to an American
Icon: "the troops", the clergy, Old Glory,
baseball, hot dogs, apple pie. Make sure
it is short, if it rhymes or is funny
all the better.
Step 2- Use constant repetition in order to
form a line of thought that automatically
leads to your argument when the icon is
mentioned. Spread it among the target
demographic using the network of peer
relationships (word of mouth), making
sure those who are seen as trendsetters
or "leaders" are observed by others as
having adopted your argument. People will
aquiesce to your argument mostly due to
peer pressure, not because your argument
has merit.
The "Do you support the troops" question is in fact
a masterpiece of sales technique in which two
concepts:
1) Supporting the American Military establishment
2) Supporting my viewpoint on Middle East Politics
are so tightly linked as to be indistingushible.
The next time someone asks you this question,
your response should *NOT* be yes or no.
You should say:
"I Support the Troops Leaving Iraq"
or
"I Suppport the Troops being in the
right battle and not the wrong one
like they are in now."
It's not what you say-It's how you say it!
rikzilla
Ninja wave: Atomic fire-breath ninja
- Joined
- Aug 3, 2001
- Messages
- 5,009
Upchurch said:
I would submit that the difference between a freely elected government and a tyranny is a black/white, good/evil kind of non-gray dichtomy. Slavery and freedom is another example...but then that's really the same thing isn't it?
Moral clarity cuts the gray....but if you don't have it the gray creeps into your entire world view. Next thing you know you find yourself a confused participant at a A.N.S.W.E.R. rally.
-z
BPSCG said:
"infoshop.org, your online anarchist community" Oh goody.
LOL @ "we welcome all military...." Earth to rocket scientists: I think I can safely say that the majority of the military would be quite happy to ship you off to a mountain range in Iraq.
Actually, that site does have some entertainment value, when you get down to it.
For example, gotta love this one:
"After a war, a hero is just a man with one leg." —Anonymous
Did I say "the majority" of the military? Make that "nearly all."
For example, gotta love this one:
"After a war, a hero is just a man with one leg." —Anonymous
Did I say "the majority" of the military? Make that "nearly all."
gnome
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 5, 2001
- Messages
- 14,862
http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/racket.htm
(Stock film of the amy. Tanks rolling, troops moving forward etc. Stirring military music.)
Voice Over: In 1943, a group of British Army Officers working deep behind enemy lines, carried out one of the most dangerous and heroic raids in the history of warfare. But that's as maybe. And now . . .
(Superimposed Caption on Screen : 'AND NOW . . . UNOCCUPIED BRITAIN 1970' Cut to colonel's office. Colonel is seated at desk.)
Colonel: Come in, what do you want?
(Private Watkins enters and salutes.)
Watkins: I'd like to leave the army please, sir.
Colonel: Good heavens man, why?
Watkins: It's dangerous.
Colonel: What?
Watkins: There are people with guns out there, sir.
Colonel: What?
Watkins: Real guns, sir. Not toy ones, sir. Proper ones, sir. They've all got 'em. All of 'em, sir. And some of 'em have got tanks.
Colonel: Watkins, they are on our side.
Watkins: And grenades, sir. And machine guns, sir. So I'd like to leave, sir, before I get killed, please.
Colonel: Watkins, you've only been in the army a day.
Watkins: I know sir but people get killed, properly dead, sir, no barley cross fingers, sir. A bloke was telling me, if you're in the army and there's a war you have to go and fight.
Colonel: That's true.
Watkins: Well I mean, blimey, I mean if it was a big war somebody could be hurt.
Colonel: Watkins why did you join the army?
Watkins: For the water-skiing and for the travel, sir. And not for the killing, sir. I asked them to put it on my form, sir - no killing.
Colonel: Watkins are you a pacifist?
Watkins: No sir, l'm not a pacifist, sir. I'm a coward.
Colonel: That's a very silly line. Sit down.
Watkins: Yes sir. Silly, sir. (sits in corner)
Colonel: Awfully bad.
(from Monty Python's Flying Circus, army protection racket sketch)
----
All kidding aside, if you hear some of the deserters' stories, for some of them one might say, "no wonder they took off"... but personally I don't agree with it. I feel once you've given your oath, you're morally obligated to remain and obey orders unless given an unlawful order, or to follow proper procedures for discharge.
Now, what if we shake that up a bit, and ask, are you morally bound to keep an oath if it was obtained on false pretenses? Some of these deserters were lied to in order to convince them to enlist (according to them).
I also do not believe all deserters are cowards. Some may do so on principle, and some may say they are, but have their own protection in mind. Some may not even know which they are. Can anyone, even the person doing it, make an objective assessment?
(Stock film of the amy. Tanks rolling, troops moving forward etc. Stirring military music.)
Voice Over: In 1943, a group of British Army Officers working deep behind enemy lines, carried out one of the most dangerous and heroic raids in the history of warfare. But that's as maybe. And now . . .
(Superimposed Caption on Screen : 'AND NOW . . . UNOCCUPIED BRITAIN 1970' Cut to colonel's office. Colonel is seated at desk.)
Colonel: Come in, what do you want?
(Private Watkins enters and salutes.)
Watkins: I'd like to leave the army please, sir.
Colonel: Good heavens man, why?
Watkins: It's dangerous.
Colonel: What?
Watkins: There are people with guns out there, sir.
Colonel: What?
Watkins: Real guns, sir. Not toy ones, sir. Proper ones, sir. They've all got 'em. All of 'em, sir. And some of 'em have got tanks.
Colonel: Watkins, they are on our side.
Watkins: And grenades, sir. And machine guns, sir. So I'd like to leave, sir, before I get killed, please.
Colonel: Watkins, you've only been in the army a day.
Watkins: I know sir but people get killed, properly dead, sir, no barley cross fingers, sir. A bloke was telling me, if you're in the army and there's a war you have to go and fight.
Colonel: That's true.
Watkins: Well I mean, blimey, I mean if it was a big war somebody could be hurt.
Colonel: Watkins why did you join the army?
Watkins: For the water-skiing and for the travel, sir. And not for the killing, sir. I asked them to put it on my form, sir - no killing.
Colonel: Watkins are you a pacifist?
Watkins: No sir, l'm not a pacifist, sir. I'm a coward.
Colonel: That's a very silly line. Sit down.
Watkins: Yes sir. Silly, sir. (sits in corner)
Colonel: Awfully bad.
(from Monty Python's Flying Circus, army protection racket sketch)
----
All kidding aside, if you hear some of the deserters' stories, for some of them one might say, "no wonder they took off"... but personally I don't agree with it. I feel once you've given your oath, you're morally obligated to remain and obey orders unless given an unlawful order, or to follow proper procedures for discharge.
Now, what if we shake that up a bit, and ask, are you morally bound to keep an oath if it was obtained on false pretenses? Some of these deserters were lied to in order to convince them to enlist (according to them).
I also do not believe all deserters are cowards. Some may do so on principle, and some may say they are, but have their own protection in mind. Some may not even know which they are. Can anyone, even the person doing it, make an objective assessment?
Cain
Straussian
"Do you support the troops?"
No.
No.
RussDill
Philosopher
Cain said:
That isn't an argument, you are just being contrary.