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Do You Support the Troops?

Re: Re: Do You Support the Troops?

Upchurch said:
Running to Canada makes it less about doing the right thing and more about getting out of a dangerous situation.

During WWII several hundreds of Finns received jail sentences for refusing military sentence. After the armistice in 1944 their cases were reviewed. Because of the political situation of the time all those who explained that "they refused to bear arms in an unjust war" were released. It was in a way the proverbial "get out of jail free" -card and just about every single prisoner who heard of it used it.

However, at the time Finland had just entered a new war, this time against Germany. The former prisoners could have shown their courage in fighting a "just" war this time. Not a single soul volunteered.
 
Re: Re: Re: Do You Support the Troops?

LW said:
During WWII several hundreds of Finns received jail sentences for refusing military sentence. After the armistice in 1944 their cases were reviewed. Because of the political situation of the time all those who explained that "they refused to bear arms in an unjust war" were released. It was in a way the proverbial "get out of jail free" -card and just about every single prisoner who heard of it used it.

However, at the time Finland had just entered a new war, this time against Germany. The former prisoners could have shown their courage in fighting a "just" war this time. Not a single soul volunteered.
That just backs my point. Not everyone is honest about the reasons they give not to fight. The reasons given by the US soldiers mentioned above is the equivalent of those you mention from Finland; it's an excuse to not fight (or not fight anymore), not about not fighting in an unjust war*.



* how many double-negatives does it take to get to the center of a Tootsie-Pop?
 
Ian Osborne said:
Or joined the National Guard and pretended to defend Alabama like the other candidate

That's not exactly the same as accusing the US Army of nonexistent war crimes while under oath during a congressional investigation, is it? For starters, joining the national guard is not, in fact, a felony.
 
Re: Re: Re: Do You Support the Troops?

peptoabysmal said:
You may have hit the nail on the head here. Did the guy go nuts in battle and start spraying bullets everywhere? Who knows?

The part of this story I'm having difficulty swallowing is that he's a deserter, and that's his choice and he will have to live with the consequences; but now he's trying to make it into some kind of anti-war statement or "war resisters"?

Look, it's the same sort of psychology that made Kerry the leader of the anti-war movement. Here's the situation. You're a freshly-minted 2nd Lieutenant, and you are now running a boat in Vietnam. You are quickly disillusioned with the whole thing and want to go home.

So what do you do? You take advantage of a little-known rule, known to you, which allows those who have three purple hearts to come home early. You set your sights on getting those purple hearts by hook or by crook--the actual merit of the awards, if any, notwithstanding. You get three purple hearts for three superficial wounds and scratches that did not, in fact, require you to spend a single day in a military hospital or to be evacuated, which shows the "seriousness" of these wounds.

While formally you probably did deserve them--the award is for those injured by enemy fire, there is no mention of the serousness of the injury--it is the kind of "award" that most self-respecting soldiers would consider below their dignity, and in any case not worth going through the paperwork for. But then again, the average soldier, unlike you, doesn't know that three purple hearts are a ticket home!

In four months, you have your three purple hearts. So what does Mr. Decorated War Hero do next? The very next week, he applies for early dismissal from Vietnam, and very soon he's back home in Boston--leaving his crew in the lurch, still in Vietnam. Some "heroism" THAT is. Obviously, the point was to be a FORMAL "hero", with just enough heroism to gain a dismissal ASAP. To be a REAL hero, or even a decent commander--to stay with one's crew, to finish one's tour--is of little importance. Screw my self-respect and my duty--just get me the hell out of here!

But then, back home in safety, perhaps Mr. War Hero is somewhat troubled. Perhaps he did wrong somehow to abandon ship? So, to compensate, he pretends to "care" for his crue--the same guys he abandoned. And how does he "care" for them? By joining the good cause of them not being "the last man to die for a mistake". That sounds very noble--especially when you're back in good ol' Boston, having made damn sure that you will not be that last man. It is almost as noble, in fact, as, oh, somebody who beat up his wife and kids and drove them away and then campaigns for building more shelters for battered wives.

Above all, make a lot of media noise and make outrageous statements libeling the armed forces. This is crucial. Yes, your crew--still in Vietnam--might resent being libeled as war criminals who are also suckers. But they don't really count (or you wouldn't have abandoned them at the first opportunity). The real reason behind all this "USA soldiers are baby-killers, and I say that as a war hero" bruhahahaha is that when you make such outrageous statements, you can convince yourself that your cowardice wasn't REALLY cowardice, since:

a). It wasn't really cowardice, but "moral outrage", that made you turn tail and run after only 1/3rd of your tour was completed, and

b). You are now merely a different type of "hero", having the "courage to speak truth to power", blah blah blah, which was, as we know, so terribly difficult to do in the early-1970s USA; and who is to say that making outrageous statements on TV is not just as heroic as getting shot at in a war?

Indeed, Kerry is perhaps the most egragerious (sp?) example of this sort of coward who pretends to be a hero by claiming that his cowardice is in reality a type of moral superiority. But here was have a similar situation, if not with as much bruhahaha. (After all, this soldier doesn't have the family connections to get him an officer's commission, three purple hearts, early dismissal, and, finally, the PR and circus to make him a "leader of the anti-war Movement".)

The main point in his "defense" is: this soldier is not a coward--he is your moral superior! He is not afraid of fighting--he just cannot stand the injustice of the war! He is not fleeing for safety--he is making a political statement from a morally superior country up north! But if you disagree and whisper that, maybe, cowardice just might have something to do with it, you are naturally merely a gung-ho pro-war neo-con. Let alone if you think he should be punished, or that Canada should not be sheltering deserters during wartime.

The man should be extradited from Canada, put on trial for desertion, and, if found guilty, run for presid.... I mean, be punished severly. So far as I know, the US Armed forced do not shoot deserters any more (the last one to have this happen to him was pvt. Slovik, in WWII--and the one before that was during the civil war). But, frankly, while I hardly think it would happen, or that it should, for a variety of reasons, I couldn't say I'd be particularly grieved if this great morally superior dissenter from evil neocon dogma were to be shot if found guilty.
 
Upchurch said:
Out of curosity, would diserting and/or being AWOL from the national guard be a felony?

Cripes, the water in STL must have something in it that wasn't there a few years ago when I lived there.

Comparing the Uniform Code of Military Justice to civilian law can be misleading. The result of a Court Martial is a federal beef and generally leads to the loss of civil rights/liberties all convicted civilian felons face. That's most minor infractions, being AWOL, fighting, etc. are treated non-judicially, Article 15.

Desertion is a court martial offense. However, to be a deserter, you must leave your post with the intention NEVER to return. This intent can be shown by the burning of military i.d., throwing away the uniform, moving to Canada and the like.

IMHO Bush was neither guilty of being AWOL or deserting. The TANG always knew where to find him. The fact that they never bothered is the telling point.
 
IIRichard said:


Desertion is a court martial offense. However, to be a deserter, you must leave your post with the intention NEVER to return. This intent can be shown by the burning of military i.d., throwing away the uniform, moving to Canada and the like.

Can you provide a citation for that. It seems to me that anyone accused of desertion could just say, "I was just on my way back when you military police guys showed up."
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Do You Support the Troops?

Skeptic said:
But then again, the average soldier, unlike you, doesn't know that three purple hearts are a ticket home!

Now, I don't know how probable the other parts of your scenario are, but this line is something that I don't believe at all. I would find it to be absolutely astoundishing situation if all servicemen in Vietnam weren't aware of something like that within a week after arriving. And they probably would be aware of several other "sure-fire" methods of getting out for some value of "sure-fire".
 
Tony said:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1029874-1,00.html ...full article



Do you support the troops? Or is your support only conditional if they act in ways with which you agree?

Of course I support the troops. But since he defected to Canada, he is no longer really a "troop," and I do not support self-serving morons who sign a contract to fight when called on and milk all the benefits of that contract...then think they can renegotiate it or "quit" when it suddenly becomes quite INconvenient.

Scurrying out of the country w/o notice is cowardly and just plain BS. Period.
 
Skeptic said:
Look, it's the same sort of psychology that made Kerry the leader of the anti-war movement. Here's the situation. You're a freshly-minted 2nd Lieutenant, and you are now running a boat in Vietnam. You are quickly disillusioned with the whole thing and want to go home.

So what do you do? You take advantage of a little-known rule, known to you, which allows those who have three purple hearts to come home early. You set your sights on getting those purple hearts by hook or by crook--the actual merit of the awards, if any, notwithstanding. You get three purple hearts for three superficial wounds and scratches that did not, in fact, require you to spend a single day in a military hospital or to be evacuated, which shows the "seriousness" of these wounds.

While formally you probably did deserve them--the award is for those injured by enemy fire, there is no mention of the serousness of the injury--it is the kind of "award" that most self-respecting soldiers would consider below their dignity, and in any case not worth going through the paperwork for. But then again, the average soldier, unlike you, doesn't know that three purple hearts are a ticket home!

In four months, you have your three purple hearts. So what does Mr. Decorated War Hero do next? The very next week, he applies for early dismissal from Vietnam, and very soon he's back home in Boston--leaving his crew in the lurch, still in Vietnam. Some "heroism" THAT is. Obviously, the point was to be a FORMAL "hero", with just enough heroism to gain a dismissal ASAP. To be a REAL hero, or even a decent commander--to stay with one's crew, to finish one's tour--is of little importance. Screw my self-respect and my duty--just get me the hell out of here!
Interesting story here. Kind of like a Hollywood "based on a true story" version of events. I like how you got rid of those other pesky medals, the silver star and bronze star. Can't let those get in the way of your coward story. Hey - I've got an idea - get the guy who played Klinger on M*A*S*H* to be Kerry - you know, to get that whole desperate to get out of the Army vibe.

I also like how you ditched the other guy that Kerry is invariably compared to out of the story. It is kind of hard to portray the other guy as a "strong leader" when all he did was, well, everything in his power to stay away from combat at all. That kind of courage gets in the way of the cowardice exhibited by the guy who goes, gets hurt three times and shocked by what he sees, and then speaks up about it. That cowardly plan to get hurt - evil genius, I tell you.
 
Ladewig said:
Can you provide a citation for that. It seems to me that anyone accused of desertion could just say, "I was just on my way back when you military police guys showed up."

Sorry, no I can't. I should have looked it up before posting and now you made me do some work. Be soon back.:)
 
Ladewig said:
Can you provide a citation for that. It seems to me that anyone accused of desertion could just say, "I was just on my way back when you military police guys showed up."

The UCMJ can be found HERE

The text of the section on desertion is:
ART. 85. DESERTION
(a) Any member of the armed forces who--
(1) without authority goes or remains absent from his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to remain away therefrom PERMANENTLY ;
(2) quits his unit, organization, or place of duty with intent to avoid hazardous duty or to shirk important service; or
(3) without being regularly separated from one of the armed forces enlists or accepts an appointment in the same or another on of the armed forces without fully disclosing the fact that he has not been regularly separated, or enters any foreign armed service except when authorized by the United States; is guilty of desertion.
(b) Any commissioned officer of the armed forces who, after tender of his resignation and before notice of its acceptance, quits his post or proper duties without leave and with intent to remain away therefrom permanently is guilty of desertion.
(c) Any person found guilty of desertion or attempt to desert shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, but if the desertion or attempt to desert occurs at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.

Emphasis added
 
Re: Re: Do You Support the Troops?

bigred said:
Of course I support the troops. But since he defected to Canada, he is no longer really a "troop," and I do not support self-serving morons who sign a contract to fight when called on and milk all the benefits of that contract...then think they can renegotiate it or "quit" when it suddenly becomes quite INconvenient.

Scurrying out of the country w/o notice is cowardly and just plain BS. Period.

Another No.
 
Kodiak said:
I do not support troops who shirk their duty.

Another No. Life is too precious and finite to worry about "duty".
 
Just for Tony's count, I would support a soldier who refuses to execute what he honestly decides is an unjust order. I do not support a soldier who uses that as a rationalization to avoid further duty. It is a fine line, but what in this world is ever a black and white issue?
 
Ladewig said:
Can you provide a citation for that. It seems to me that anyone accused of desertion could just say, "I was just on my way back when you military police guys showed up."

I'm certain it's not as liberal as that, but unlike most armies, where in most cases AWOLs automatically become deserters after a certain period of time, this is not the case in the USA.
 
Tony said:
Another No. Life is too precious and finite to worry about "duty".

(snort) Sure--as long as there are all those OTHER suckers who worry about it so you don't have to.

To quote Epictetus, "The brave man is called a fool--by the coward."
 
"War is an ugly thing......

But not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

John Stuart Mill
 

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