Ed Do you like your cheese?

[EHocking]

According to the online etymological dictionary:

That certainly demonstrates just how much Urban Dictionary sucks.

 

[zooterkin]

Kind of pot calling the kettle black though.

I'm not fighting anything.

I don't actually care if they change the name.

As I have said I am not an Aussie. Have never seen it or brought it.

All I said was I thought it was stupid as it is someone's last name.

I hope your British friend got home alright to buy her Faggots from tescos

That might be comparable if 'faggot' were used as an insult in the UK, which it isn't, AFAIK (there may be corner cases, given our exposure to US TV and movies, but it's not at all common). Faggot means either a type of meatball or a bundle of sticks. Similarly, 'fag' means cigarette (though you won't see that written the packet).

In the cheese case, the word is known and used as a racial slur in the same country.

 

[Giordano]

Since it's an Aussie thing, I didn't actually know there was a Coon cheese.

When I see the name Coon, I think of this guy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gene_L._Coon


Maybe if they named it something like "Edward Coon Style Cheese". Or just "Ed Coon". Redesign the logo so that it's more obvious that it's a guy's name. Bah. There's a reason I'm in engineering instead of marketing.

I'm not trying to be flippant with this next question. Honestly. We've heard that calling a dog a Coon Hound is racist, so what about the Maine Coon cat breed? Like I say, it's a serious question. They are named because they are larger than average cats, like the size of a raccoon, that often have ringed tails.

I'm just trying to grasp what it is that makes a name racist. There is absolutely zero doubt that the cat breed is named for its resemblance to a raccoon, but the actual origin of the name seems pretty irrelevant. The cheese is named for a guy who invented the cheese-making process used to make the cheese, but because the name has a different meaning, people say that using the guy's name is racist, at least when applied to cheese.

With cats, I suppose the "Maine" descriptor makes it sound less jarring. I've never heard anyone refer to the breed without the "Maine" part.. It's always "Maine Coon", so maybe that's enough separation, verbally, that no one gets confused. I hope so. Otherwise, the state of Maine is going to have to change its official state cat.

I actually like the concept. If one wanted to keep a connection to the founder then call it “Ed C’s Cheese.” Or something similar.

To me it is basic marketing and the name of one’s product is crucial. Companies pay consultants many, many dollars to choose (in the USA) a replacement for “Esso,” then to decide if the replacement, Exxon, should have one or two x’s. Above all you don’t want to stir up any negative feelings, even subconscious ones, in a potential consumer.

Often the passage of time or unfortunate events turn a previously acceptable name into poison. There used to a a brand of candylike treat that was sold as a dietary aid called “AIDS.” Needless to say after the outbreak of HIV in the 1970’s...

One can spend a lot of money to try to educate the consumer, “Oh, no, the name doesn’t mean what you might think,” or one can just recognize that it is time to change the name. Stupid to be stubborn.

 

[Meadmaker]

I have no issue with the rest of the post either, but disagree that sucks was vulgar in intent.

I’ve always thought of it, and used it, in the context of “that sucks air”

OK Urban Dictionary is not the greatest of cites sure, but, except for “suck my dick”, none (Not many)of the other “suck” variants are vulgar?

I’m not sure how accurate their etymology is, but this is how they go at sucks,

The early Jazz musicians would say that a guy could really "Blow" if he had a good sound when playing the horn. If he couldn't play very well then they would say that he was "Sucking" on that horn. That's where the term "Suck" as being something bad came from.
He plays that horn so poorly that he must be sucking on it​

I much prefer, “ya boo sucks to all swots gurls and masters”

When I was young, 1970s, it was considered not quite obscene, and it was certainly known exactly what was being sucked in the reference. Although, like the other word that rhymes with it that the autocensor would remove if I were to type it, it is unclear exactly how one would go about performing the act in many of the cases where the word is used.

 

[Meadmaker]

I actually like the concept. If one wanted to keep a connection to the founder then call it “Ed C’s Cheese.” Or something similar.

To me it is basic marketing and the name of one’s product is crucial. Companies pay consultants many, many dollars to choose (in the USA) a replacement for “Esso,” then to decide if the replacement, Exxon, should have one or two x’s. Above all you don’t want to stir up any negative feelings, even subconscious ones, in a potential consumer.

Often the passage of time or unfortunate events turn a previously acceptable name into poison. There used to a a brand of candylike treat that was sold as a dietary aid called “AIDS.” Needless to say after the outbreak of HIV in the 1970’s...

One can spend a lot of money to try to educate the consumer, “Oh, no, the name doesn’t mean what you might think,” or one can just recognize that it is time to change the name. Stupid to be stubborn.

In the end, it is a business decision, and what they are trading off is brand recognition and loyalty versus loss of sales due to negative perceptions of their brand name, and they should make their decision purely in business terms.

My objection is not that they are changing their name. I had never heard of the stuff before this thread. My objection is to the self righteousness displayed by those people in this case and similar cases who demand that something be changed because they perceive something racist or vulgar when in fact there is nothing of the sort present in the name, and they persist in their demands even after their mistake has been pointed out. Their perception is what is significant to them. Reality be damned.

There's a word that can be used as a racial slur, and it can also be used as a person's name, or it could be a shortened form of the name of a North American nocturnal mammal. That word then lends itself to cheese naming or to name a breed of dog or cat. The fact that it can be used as a racial slur does not make the other uses of those sounds into racist references, and people shouldn't have to change the way they talk, or the way they name their cheese, due to other people's errors.

 

[MoeFaux]

"Sucks" was a swear in my house, and at school. Adults made it clear that it referred to dick sucking. Thanks, adults.

But, I think that's devolving away from the issue. Comparing the use of word the cheese is named after to the throwaway "too bad" word for something being negative is like the folks getting their panties in a twist and saying being called a "Karen" is the same as the n-word. It's not the same. Not. At. All.

A more apt comparison came to me last night when I recalled the recent call for the regional grocer Trader Joe's to begin renaming some of their in-house products which had "cute" names referring to the cuisine. In hindsight, now that it's been called to my attention, it is so glaringly obvious how these products must be renamed. (This is like that Supreme Court Justice quote on porn, "I'll know it when I see it," where maybe I didn't quite see it before it was pointed out to me, but I can't *unsee* it now that I know.)

From NPR:
"Trader Joe's is getting rid of product names such as Trader José's, Arabian Joe's and Trader Ming's that critics say are racist and "perpetuates harmful stereotypes."

(I'm sorry, campaign for good linking, I'm just linking: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...ng-to-remove-brand-names-criticized-as-racist )

Still. "Trader Ming's" refers to a stereotype. The word in question in this thread is a slur.

 

[pgwenthold]

"Sucks" was a swear in my house, and at school. Adults made it clear that it referred to dick sucking. Thanks, adults.

"Sucks cold donkey balls"

 

[Meadmaker]

From NPR:
"Trader Joe's is getting rid of product names such as Trader José's, Arabian Joe's and Trader Ming's that critics say are racist and "perpetuates harmful stereotypes."

(I'm sorry, campaign for good linking, I'm just linking: https://www.npr.org/sections/live-u...ng-to-remove-brand-names-criticized-as-racist )

Still. "Trader Ming's" refers to a stereotype. The word in question in this thread is a slur.

I don't get it. Should people named "Coon" change their names? Or should they just refrain from using their names if they create a product? I googled a bit. There's a Coon Laboratories. Name change required? There's a Coon Manufacturing that does plastics. Out it goes? That's a serious question.

As for Trader Joe's, the word "Joe" refers to a stereotype as well. My name is "Dave". That's a stereotypical American name. If you want a bland American name for a character in fiction, call him Dave. There was a movie of that name in the '90s that exploited that characteristic. I wonder if I should be outraged at the use of my name as a stereotype. "Joe" is in some ways even more stereotypical. It's an "average Joe" name. It carries an image. I don't know if the company had any connection to someone named "Joe" when it started, but they stuck with that name because it created a pleasant association in people's minds, through the stereotype on the name.


I can't see anything offensive about "Trader Jose", unless it was accompanied by some graphics that were offensive. i.e. I remember Juan Valdez and the Frito Bandito. I can understand what was offensive about them. Using "Jose" in place of "Joe" shouldn't be considered offensive by itself. It's a recognition that Mexican food, which is an ethnic stereotype, has roots in Mexico, where no one is named Joe, but the equivalent name is Jose. The Spanish language is not an unflattering stereotype.

Ethnic references are not offensive unless they are used in a demeaning manner.

ETA: I haven't seen a "Carlos Murphy's" restauraunt/bar in a while. Talk about your ethnic stereotypes. That's worse than a "black and tan hound".

 

[Minoosh]

How many clicked on this thread because the title included the word "coon"? Is using racist terms ironically OK?

My brother and I loved our "coonskin" caps from the Fess Parker fan club. I'm sure no actual raccoons were involved. Or "coons" either for that matter.

 

[rockinkt]

Really? You, a member of the white majority, are telling a black person that they are just being too sensitive, too silly, and should not be offended or not by a use of a term that has a long history as a racial slur directed against blacks. After, in fact, members of this forum had specifically requested that black people be asked if they are offended by this term. Apparently she had the “wrong” answer for you to accept it.

Don’t you think your post might be viewed as a bit insulting, condescending, and presumptuous?

You're making a lot of assumptions about a half-breed Sto:Lo - Eastern European.

I received insults from both sides of the spectrum growing up. "Half-breed" was one of the nicest terms. I was called "apple" (red on the outside and white on the inside) a million times by my First Nation relatives and acquaintances. "Siwash" was one of the name I was called by my "white" relatives and acquaintances. I went to movies and watched John Wayne kill a lot of "Redskins".
I was told by one teacher I was Native Indian because race was from the mother's side.
I was told by another teacher I was white because at that time women lost their Native Indian status officially if they married a non-Native Indian man. Therefore - I was not legally an "Indian" in the eyes of the government.
My First Nation relatives got a daily stipend to go to school. They got their university paid for. I had to earn every penny on my own.
I was doubly disadvantaged. Redskin with no rights.

I never bothered to get my status card when the rules changed. Like my mother and father - I don't believe in dividing people by race.
I don't cringe or cry or play the victim and demand a type of fruit never be mentioned in my presence because I am looking for ways to put myself in some sort of sympathetic position.

I looked up to police officers when I was growing up. When I became a cop a lot of people hated me because of the uniform I wore. Wow! Could have swallowed my service revolver like a number of cops do - but I had been raised to be self-respecting and confident that I was a good person. Great parents make a difference.
I learned at a young age that words don't have power over me and that people are people and to ignore the bad and cherish the good. Again - one can look and find hidden meaning in all sorts of things if one is looking for them.
Best not to think everything is about you or your race or your sex or your whatever. Peace of mind is far more important than always looking for something to bitch about.
It's called self-respect, based on self-confidence and accomplishing something in life instead of always playing the victim card.
Life is hard. It's harder for people who refuse to take responsibility for their own state of mind.

 

[Giordano]

You're making a lot of assumptions about a half-breed Sto:Lo - Eastern European.

I received insults from both sides of the spectrum growing up. "Half-breed" was one of the nicest terms. I was called "apple" (red on the outside and white on the inside) a million times by my First Nation relatives and acquaintances. "Siwash" was one of the name I was called by my "white" relatives and acquaintances. I went to movies and watched John Wayne kill a lot of "Redskins".
I was told by one teacher I was Native Indian because race was from the mother's side.
I was told by another teacher I was white because at that time women lost their Native Indian status officially if they married a non-Native Indian man. Therefore - I was not legally an "Indian" in the eyes of the government.
My First Nation relatives got a daily stipend to go to school. They got their university paid for. I had to earn every penny on my own.
I was doubly disadvantaged. Redskin with no rights.

I never bothered to get my status card when the rules changed. Like my mother and father - I don't believe in dividing people by race.
I don't cringe or cry or play the victim and demand a type of fruit never be mentioned in my presence because I am looking for ways to put myself in some sort of sympathetic position.

I looked up to police officers when I was growing up. When I became a cop a lot of people hated me because of the uniform I wore. Wow! Could have swallowed my service revolver like a number of cops do - but I had been raised to be self-respecting and confident that I was a good person. Great parents make a difference.
I learned at a young age that words don't have power over me and that people are people and to ignore the bad and cherish the good. Again - one can look and find hidden meaning in all sorts of things if one is looking for them.
Best not to think everything is about you or your race or your sex or your whatever. Peace of mind is far more important than always looking for something to bitch about.
It's called self-respect, based on self-confidence and accomplishing something in life instead of always playing the victim card.
Life is hard. It's harder for people who refuse to take responsibility for their own state of mind.

Sounds like you did a great job overcoming the prejudice you encountered in your life. But it doesn’t mean that ignoring insults and slurs is the only approach. In fact I submit that name calling, discrimination, and prejudice never go away if the only response is to. buck-up and show how stoic one is. Jim Crow and institutionalized racism continued unchanged for over a hundred years in the USA with many black people bearing it silently and with dignity. They were strong and brave people. Yet the racism continued on and on. Only taking offense, protesting and engaging in acts of resistance led to the Civil Rights acts of the 1960s.

The current thread is about a lesser issue: the decision by a business to rename a cheese that currently is a term that is a racial slur. You are arguing that because the origin of this name was innocent people should just buck-up and not be offended. My point is

(1) it is a rational business decision whatever the origin of the name. It is ridiculous to suggest the company should try to explain to every potential customer that the name isn’t really a slur name. Not changing the name is just bad business. The same as stubbornly keeping a product name “Nausea Nibbles” because the founder of the company was James Nausea.

(2) in the absence of a leaflet with every box explaining the backstory, it is reasonable to be offended by the name. Even knowing the backstory I can understand the word itself can be disturbing and I don’t think one has to be terribly thin skinned to be disturbed. As I noted upthread “Hitler’s Cheese Nibbles Baked in Gas Ovens” would be disturbing to me even knowing it wasn’t “that” Hitler. The name inherently invokes negative images and connotations - not what one wants for a sales product.

Other posters demanded to know if black people were indeed offended by the name and indeed the one person queried was. That was precisely relevant to the question of was it important to change the product name from a sales point of view. You in your own situation have a different view of slurs against your ethnic background but other people have the right to provide their own views about slur words without being treated dismissively or patronized.

 

[cullennz]

Sounds like you did a great job overcoming the prejudice you encountered in your life. But it doesn’t mean that ignoring insults and slurs is the only approach. In fact I submit that name calling, discrimination, and prejudice never go away if the only response is to. buck-up and show how stoic one is. Jim Crow and institutionalized racism continued unchanged for over a hundred years in the USA with many black people bearing it silently and with dignity. They were strong and brave people. Yet the racism continued on and on. Only taking offense, protesting and engaging in acts of resistance led to the Civil Rights acts of the 1960s.



The current thread is about a lesser issue: the decision by a business to rename a cheese that currently is a term that is a racial slur. You are arguing that because the origin of this name was innocent people should just buck-up and not be offended. My point is



(1) it is a rational business decision whatever the origin of the name. It is ridiculous to suggest the company should try to explain to every potential customer that the name isn’t really a slur name. Not changing the name is just bad business. The same as stubbornly keeping a product name “Nausea Nibbles” because the founder of the company was James Nausea.



(2) in the absence of a leaflet with every box explaining the backstory, it is reasonable to be offended by the name. Even knowing the backstory I can understand the word itself can be disturbing and I don’t think one has to be terribly thin skinned to be disturbed. As I noted upthread “Hitler’s Cheese Nibbles Baked in Gas Ovens” would be disturbing to me even knowing it wasn’t “that” Hitler. The name inherently invokes negative images and connotations - not what one wants for a sales product.



Other posters demanded to know if black people were indeed offended by the name and indeed the one person queried was. That was precisely relevant to the question of was it important to change the product name from a sales point of view. You in your own situation have a different view of slurs against your ethnic background but other people have the right to provide their own views about slur words without being treated dismissively or patronized.

Tbf the cheese is sold in Aus and I doubt a lot of people know what the Jim Crow laws were in the US

 

[arthwollipot]

At the expense of repeating myself, there are a lot of big issues surrounding indigenous disadvantage. This is not one of them.

There's no reason we can't work on all the issues, big and small. Let's grab the low-hanging fruit while we work on the bigger and more complex issues.

No-one is saying "Well, we've renamed the cheese. Racism over!"

 

[arthwollipot]

Tbf cheese is a personal thing.

A bloke once threw a block of cheddar at me for no reason.

I thought. Hey that's not mature.

Okay, credit where it's due.

 

[rockinkt]

<snip>
The current thread is about a lesser issue: the decision by a business to rename a cheese that currently is a term that is a racial slur. You are arguing that because the origin of this name was innocent people should just buck-up and not be offended.
<snip>

I am not arguing that any business should not change its branding for whatever reason it wants. I'm merely pointing out the fact that words do not have power over you unless you allow them to have power over you.

Words are a very different thing and should not be compared to Jim Crow Laws or the Canadian Indian Act that actively took away rights and privileges and created actual situations of quantifiable and demonstrable harm.
Not being allowed into business or a neighborhood or having no vote or being forced to go to different schools or being physically abused or harassed/assaulted/killed by cops for being a certain race is a whole lot different than words that may or may not be intended as derogatory.
"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never break me" is an old rhyme that makes a lot of sense.
Of course - the power associated with playing a victim in this day and age is something a lot of people cannot resist.

 

[arthwollipot]

"Sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never break me" is an old rhyme that makes a lot of sense.

Except that it's not true.

Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can disenfranchise and marginalise.

The only people who say that words can never hurt them are those who have never been on the receiving end of a barrage of hateful words.

 

[Meadmaker]

Except that it's not true.

Sticks and stones can break my bones but words can disenfranchise and marginalise.

The only people who say that words can never hurt them are those who have never been on the receiving end of a barrage of hateful words.

Words can also convince other people to throw sticks and stones.

ETA: So, words can end up causing real harm, indirectly. That doesn't actually take much away from Rockinkt's point.

 

[Planigale]

I don't know how old you are, but "coon" was frequently used in the UK, on mainstream TV, throughout the 70s and 80s (TV shows featuring Alf Garnett, the "comedy" of Bernard Manning and the movie Scum spring to mind). These films and TV shows were surely broadcast to Australia. I am sure that nobody above the age of 40 born and raised in the UK or Australia can claim to not know that coon is a racial epithet used against black people.

Born 1986. I thought gentleman of your vintage had better manners than to ask a lady her age! (Insert appropriate smiley here.)

As said I am certainly aware of it as a predominantly US racist epithet. Like the discussion around Faggots*, as a Yorkshire lass this was something unpleasant that I never got from the chippy as it was almost certainly haram, it was not one of the many anti-gay terms widely bandied about. I would however be very careful about using the term.

*
1 lb. pig's liver
2 onions
4 oz. fat pork e.g. belly
Sage, Thyme, Basil, Nutmeg, Pepper
Salt
1 egg
Breadcrumbs
Pig's caul

 

[Vixen]

I don't know how old you are, but "coon" was frequently used in the UK, on mainstream TV, throughout the 70s and 80s (TV shows featuring Alf Garnett, the "comedy" of Bernard Manning and the movie Scum spring to mind). These films and TV shows were surely broadcast to Australia. I am sure that nobody above the age of 40 born and raised in the UK or Australia can claim to not know that coon is a racial epithet used against black people.

It was used a lot in 'Until Death Us Do Part' by Alf Garnett, but I don't think it ever caught on with the man-in-the-street, as it were.

 

[Darat]

It was used a lot in 'Until Death Us Do Part' by Alf Garnett, but I don't think it ever caught on with the man-in-the-street, as it were.

Where do you think Speight got it from? It was a common insult long before 1965.