Ed Do you like your cheese?

[arthwollipot]

It seems to me that this is basically an informal fallacy that I don't know the name for, the "Do Something Better With Your Time Fallacy". It isn't related to the argument itself, only that the effort of making it isn't worth it.

A closely related fallacy is the "You can concentrate on making only one thing better at a time so you'd better prioritise" fallacy.

 

[angrysoba]

Maybe it could simply be begging the question.

One person thinks it is worth their time, and another person says they shouldn't do it because they say it is NOT worth their time.

 

[angrysoba]

A closely related fantasy is the "You can concentrate on making only one thing better at a time so you'd better prioritise" fallacy.

Yeah, a false dichotomy.

 

[Meadmaker]

Getting outraged that a boring supermarket cheddar with a racial slur is being renamed is dumb. It is this kind of stupidity that culture wars outrage petrol thrower Murdoch and old alcoholic talkback radio hosts love to exploit for dollars. Getting enraged by that **** is dumb but also nasty.

Is that what's happening? Not being an Aussie, I might be out of touch with what's really happening.

I would agree that getting outraged about a cheese being renamed is pretty stupid. I'm certainly glad I'm not doing that.

On the other hand, getting outraged about a campaign to demand that someone rename their cheese doesn't seem nearly as stupid. I think "outrage" is a bit strong for what I'm feeling, but whatever. I'm not outraged at being characterized as outraged. Offended? That certainly fits. Yeah, I'm offended that someone demands somebody else rename their cheese.

I don't think it's dumb to be offended by that. I do think it's dumb to be offended by some guy's name on a box of cheese, regardless of what his name happens to be or whatever other meanings a word that is spelled the same way as his name might have.

 

[angrysoba]

I don't think it's dumb to be offended by that. I do think it's dumb to be offended by some guy's name on a box of cheese, regardless of what his name happens to be or whatever other meanings a word that is spelled the same way as his name might have.

What if the name of the person happened to be Cock, named after Mr Cock, and so the product was called Cock Cheese?

Literal-minded shoppers would no doubt say, with a tone of offended sensibilities, "it is only a surname. Stop thinking about the wrong meaning!"

Can we really say people are wrong for the associations their minds make?

 

[arthwollipot]

What if the name of the person happened to be Cock, named after Mr Cock, and so the product was called Cock Cheese?

Literal-minded shoppers would no doubt say, with a tone of offended sensibilities, "it is only a surname. Stop thinking about the wrong meaning!"

Can we really say people are wrong for the associations their minds make?

A more appropriate analogy would be if the person happened to be ******, named after Mr ******, and so the product was called ****** Cheese.

 

[zooterkin]

Did you know the actress Olivia Wilde changed her name? It was originally Olivia Cockburn.


It's not applicable to the argument, really. But just wanted to point out how maybe changing a name isn't the worst idea. Maybe she didn't want to be associated with the word 'cockburn,' who's to say why. Sure, it could be just because she went into acting (although, she changed her name in high school). But it was a proud family name. Both parents are journalists, so the name was out there. Could it be that she personally just didn't want that to be her name anymore? That she just couldn't bear to hear 'cockburn' anymore?

She says she changed it in homage to Oscar Wilde. Should she have held on to her heritage, and kept her longheld family name? WHO THE HELL CARES, IT'S NOT A RACIAL EPITHET.

No big deal. Change the name.

Not a great analogy, for a couple of reasons. Actors use stage names for a number of reasons. For one, I believe that in some countries, names registered with the actors’ union must be unique.

Also, in this particular case, Cockburn is usually pronounced ‘Coburn’, at least in the UK, so she wouldn’t be hearing ‘cockburn’ anyway.

 

[zooterkin]

What if the name of the person happened to be Cock, named after Mr Cock, and so the product was called Cock Cheese?

Literal-minded shoppers would no doubt say, with a tone of offended sensibilities, "it is only a surname. Stop thinking about the wrong meaning!"

Can we really say people are wrong for the associations their minds make?

They could put it on the shelves next to the Cock Brand Sweet Chilli Sauce, which is a source of innocent amusement (and not a racist insult).

https://www.chickadvisor.com/item/cock-brand-sweet-chili-sauce-for-chicken/

 

[Vixen]

Not a great analogy, for a couple of reasons. Actors use stage names for a number of reasons. For one, I believe that in some countries, names registered with the actors’ union must be unique.

Also, in this particular case, Cockburn is usually pronounced ‘Coburn’, at least in the UK, so she wouldn’t be hearing ‘cockburn’ anyway.

And even then, people are quite happy to live in Cockfosters and it would be a cock-up to claim there is anything rude about it.

 

[Meadmaker]

What if the name of the person happened to be Cock, named after Mr Cock, and so the product was called Cock Cheese?

Literal-minded shoppers would no doubt say, with a tone of offended sensibilities, "it is only a surname. Stop thinking about the wrong meaning!"

Can we really say people are wrong for the associations their minds make?

There's two different issues here, and they keep getting mixed up.

As a marketing device, should they rename Cock Cheese, or Coon Cheese, or whatever other unfortunate name they happened to use once upon a time? That's one question, and it is not a question about morality. It's just a question of whether they think it will help sales. So, should they rename Coon Chesse? Ask the people in the sales office. It doesn't matter.

However, the second question is whether they should rename it, regardless of sales considerations. If they decide to keep selling Coon Cheese, should other people mount a campaign to get them to change it? Should they be pressured to change it?

My opinion is no, whether the name is Cock or Coon or whatever. The name is not racist. It may have racist associations in many people's heads, but the name is a person's name. It wasn't chosen for racist connotations. It was just a name of someone, and it had undoubtedly been the name of his father and quite a few generations back. It is not racist. (Or in the case of Cock Cheese it is not vulgar.) There should be no obligation to change it.

The fact that you, and a lot of other people, think of something racist when you see Coon Cheese is something that people in the marketing department will no doubt have to deal with, but there is no moral obligation to do so. They are not being racist if they decide to keep their brand name.

In general, there is a strong tendency in the modern world to declare, "I am offended by something you do, therefore you have to change. It doesn't matter if the offense is caused by my lack of knowledge or lack of understanding. You offend me, so it's your fault." It's a bit self centered.

 

[AnonyMoose]

Went to school with a gal named Lisa Slutski. The hell that poor girl went through in school. I ran into her at a bar with some friends a few years after we graduated... Needless to say, she legally changed her last name the minute she turned 18. True story.

Sometimes letting go of the 'old' and embracing the 'new' can be an uplifting, freeing, good thing.

 

[Belz...]

No one gives a damn about the process used to produce a supermarket cheddar that is indistinguishable from any other in the dairy aisle.

The very fact that they used the name of the guy who made that process on the product tells us that they thought it was its distinguishing feature.

Not a unique marketing proposition unless the target market is racists.

Except that it's the guy's ******* name!

 

[angrysoba]

I'm offended that someone demands somebody else rename their cheese.

And....

In general, there is a strong tendency in the modern world to declare, "I am offended by something you do, therefore you have to change. It doesn't matter if the offense is caused by my lack of knowledge or lack of understanding. You offend me, so it's your fault." It's a bit self centered.

Well, okay then...

There's two different issues here, and they keep getting mixed up.

As a marketing device, should they rename Cock Cheese, or Coon Cheese, or whatever other unfortunate name they happened to use once upon a time? That's one question, and it is not a question about morality. It's just a question of whether they think it will help sales. So, should they rename Coon Chesse? Ask the people in the sales office. It doesn't matter.

I'm only trying to establish that whatever one person thinks it means to say X, it doesn't mean that that's how it is received.

The fact that you, and a lot of other people, think of something racist when you see Coon Cheese is something that people in the marketing department will no doubt have to deal with, but there is no moral obligation to do so. They are not being racist if they decide to keep their brand name.

When I see the name Coon Cheese I do think of something racist, yes. And you are almost certainly right that a lot of other people do too.

Given the fact, that people do, couldn't it still be a good idea to change it?

I don't think I have at any point said "it is a moral obligation to change it."

There may be a moral case for changing it, and deciding to do so may be a commendable action. It may make a large number of people uncomfortable seeing it, and by changing the name you take away that discomfort.

I am pretty sure that most of us alter our speech in situations where we think it is possible to be misinterpreted or even to *gasp* avoid offence.

 

[Sideroxylon]

The very fact that they used the name of the guy who made that process on the product tells us that they thought it was its distinguishing feature.

It’s hilarious that you think that this is a counter to the current irrelevance to supermarket cheese consumers of either the man or his process.

Except that it's the guy's ******* name!

Some guy and a process no one gives a **** about in the face of it also being a nasty racial denigration against Aboriginal Australians.

 

[TurkeysGhost]

It's strange to believe that anyone at this cheese company would care about protecting this name out of any loyalty to some long dead patent holder or some nostalgia for the brand.

These are the same marketers that would obsess over the color, text font, and packaging of their product to ensure it's the most appealing item on the shelf next to competitors. If the name is even bringing a shadow of hesitation to a consumer, they'll ditch it. It's a simple calculation, does the negative connotation of a name, real or imagined, exceed the value of any established brand recognition? If yes, it gets dumped.

The Cooning cheese process may have been exciting to average consumers 100 years ago, but nobody cares about it now. I doubt the vast majority of people buying Coon cheese would know why it's called that.

 

[Mike!]

Went to school with a gal named Lisa Slutski. The hell that poor girl went through in school. I ran into her at a bar with some friends a few years after we graduated... Needless to say, she legally changed her last name the minute she turned 18. True story.

Sometimes letting go of the 'old' and embracing the 'new' can be an uplifting, freeing, good thing.

I went to school with a girl named Adaleen Dick, Ada for short. Yes, she went through hell as well. I don't know if she changed it later or not. The family business was a florist shop, "Dick's Flowers", still in business.

(Yes, everyone should Dick's their own flowers)

 

[lionking]

It's strange to believe that anyone at this cheese company would care about protecting this name out of any loyalty to some long dead patent holder or some nostalgia for the brand.

These are the same marketers that would obsess over the color, text font, and packaging of their product to ensure it's the most appealing item on the shelf next to competitors. If the name is even bringing a shadow of hesitation to a consumer, they'll ditch it. It's a simple calculation, does the negative connotation of a name, real or imagined, exceed the value of any established brand recognition? If yes, it gets dumped.

The Cooning cheese process may have been exciting to average consumers 100 years ago, but nobody cares about it now. I doubt the vast majority of people buying Coon cheese would know why it's called that.

Yet it didn't. The cheese continued to be purchased. We have a packet in our fridge purchased this week. If there's evidence of some sort of Coon Cheese boycott, I'd like to see it. All I can see is that the name is being changed because of recent outrage (nothing to do with Hagen by the way, whose 20 year crusade did zip).

No they are not planning to change the name because of a massive consumer boycott. Company PR staff got nervous, and that's enough for management to act.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Yet it didn't. The cheese continued to be purchased. We have a packet in our fridge purchased this week. If there's evidence of some sort of Coon Cheese boycott, I'd like to see it. All I can see is that the name is being changed because of recent outrage (nothing to do with Hagen by the way, whose 20 year crusade did zip).

No they are not planning to change the name because of a massive consumer boycott. Company PR staff got nervous, and that's enough for management to act.

The brand used to be ubiquitous when I was growing up in the 1970s and ‘80s but I am pretty sure it doesn’t have the market share it once did. Quick research efforts on the market talk about the growth in the supermarket duopoly home brands and I would think that NZ dairy has taken a fair slice too.

I cant remember the last time I bought the cheese with the racist name we used to snicker about as racist kids. I don’t believe there is an organised boycott of any impact but this corporate decision is surely made on the basis a rebranding will improve sales.

 

[angrysoba]

Yet it didn't. The cheese continued to be purchased. We have a packet in our fridge purchased this week. If there's evidence of some sort of Coon Cheese boycott, I'd like to see it. All I can see is that the name is being changed because of recent outrage (nothing to do with Hagen by the way, whose 20 year crusade did zip).

No they are not planning to change the name because of a massive consumer boycott. Company PR staff got nervous, and that's enough for management to act.

I don’t know if it was nothing to do with Hagan. It seems the cheese recently changed owners and he wrote a letter to the new owners requesting the change of name and they agreed.

 

[lionking]

I don’t know if it was nothing to do with Hagan. It seems the cheese recently changed owners and he wrote a letter to the new owners requesting the change of name and they agreed.

A single letter did this? Come off it. You can’t possibly believe that. We are talking about a product that’s been on sale for the better part of a century and you are saying a letter caused the name change?

********.