Do you guys believe this is true?

"If this is true, all kinds of scientists would be all over it like ugly on a monkey"

I haven't checked all that much, but so far, apparently not. THat's just how it goes, they understand what they know, and what they don't know they don't understand and are therefore not interested. In fact this goes beyond just undersanding "history" from a regular view

Mostly it seems Okinawan researchers, and some americans. Maybe the stuff you want is mostly in Japanese. Maybe it has had a bigger impact in Okinawa than world wide
 
SezMe said:
[WARNING: Appeal to authority]
The first link is to an article by Linda Moulton Howe. She thinks crop circles are really messages sent by extraterrestrial aliens. She does not seem to be able to separate fact from fantasy so that site has NO credibility - at least with me.
[/WARNING: Appeal to authority]

The second link refers to Noah's Flood. That's it. End of investigation. The simple answer to your OP title is "NO."

So. Flipping. What!

Both links are to pages primarily describing perfectly legitimate research in an entirely appropriate way.

What does it matter what Linda Moulton Howe thinks? If that is her article and not something reprinted, then she can do a decent, if brief interview quite well. The second is a translation from an article in the Diario de Yucatan. Both are perfectly fine pieces of journalism, in fact better than most. Better than anybody who ever interviewed me about my scientific visualization research.

Times like these make me feel embarrassed for being a skeptic.
 
sackett said:
You might regard ancient Crete as home to a sophisticated culture, call it a civilization*, that occupied a restricted area. Of course the Cretans traded widely and drew their sustenance from a larger part of the world than their few islands, so you couldn't call them isolated.

* I want to use "civilized" and "civilization" in the restricted sense of "societies that build towns," i.e., cives.

When I wrote as king someone to point me an isolated civilization on a small area (or something like that) I had the Minoic civilization in mind.

As you pointed out, it was not isolated, for it had a well stabilished trade routes network. Also they occupied an area that is not as small as Killik´s "ruins". Killik´s alleged lost cities in Cuba and Japan are very small.

When we take a look at more reliable sunken cities remains (those found at Indian subcontinent shorelines), the best we can inferr are small urban nuclei. There´s nothing of really advanced as claimed by Cayce´s followers or deffenders of Atlantis and Mu . And none of these cities has been dated being as old as the last Ice Age. They may be of the same age as Harappa (roughly the same age of the Sumerians, perhaps a bit older).

Even though there are submerged remains (ports, usually) from Minoic times, there are several ruins that are well above the sea level, indicating that they occupied the whole islands. All of this is backed by remains.

Now, what´s the importance of all of this?

Simple.

Hancock´s ancient lost civilization is supposed to have been widespread, with cities or outposts in the Mediterranean, Americas, Asia and Japan (at least). And with trade routes linking all of this.

Lets compare this with the Minoic civilization, that is at least an order of magnitude smaller, when it comes to trade route network extent (the Mediterranean Sea, much more possibly the eastern part of it) as well as the sensu strictu area it occupied, where its cities and farmlands were located (Crete and neighbouring areas, an area smaller than Classical Greece).

So, why -and how- would these civilizations restrict themselves to the portions that were submerged at the end of the last Ice Age? Where are the remains of cities of the same age located at higher grounds? Its just plain silly and dumb to locate all cities of you civilization at the shoreline, ignoring all the natural resources that lie inland and the defensive bonus of higher ground.

The sea level rise at the end of the last Ice Age was not equal at all places around the world, contrary to what some think. The amount of shoreline retreated depended on the shelf slope and of local vertical movimentation, governed by a number of geologic phenomena such as tafrogenesis (sedimentary basin formation), orogenesis (mountain range formation) and isostasy (response of the crust to added or subtracted load, for example, removing the weight of a continental glacier cases uplift). Some places actually were uplifted!

So, is very unlikely that all remains of such a vast civilization would have disappeared. It´s one of the fatal flaws from Hancock´s speculations.

sackett said:
But I think you're just a big old meany, kicking down Kilik's playhouse this way.

Meany Ok, but old? Now I´m sad...:( :p
 
From this thread-
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=61539

Here's a good article that talks about prehistory, from the teachings of Falun Dafa-
http://falundafa.org/book/eng/mgjf.htm

" Through the ages, humankind has gone through civilizations of different periods many times. Each time human morality became degenerate, its civilization would be destroyed. Very few people would survive in the end. They would inherit a little of the culture from the previous civilization and develop after going through another stone age. The stone age isn’t limited to one period only—there have been a lot of stone ages. Today’s scientists have found some problems: Many archaeological findings aren’t from just one period. But when they try to fit them into the theory of evolution, they can’t explain it in the face of the facts. We’ve found that the humans on this Earth, that is, the people from different historical periods, have left behind cultural relics of different periods. Modern people all say that the pyramids in ancient Egypt were built by Egyptians. But they have nothing to do with the present-day Egyptians whatsoever. That is, humans and nations have a wrong understanding of their own history. The pyramids and the Egyptians have nothing to do with each other at all. Those pyramids were built during a prehistoric civilization, and sank under water during a continental shift. When the civilization that followed was about to emerge and new continents were being created, they rose up from the depths of the water. That group of people was long gone, and then the present-day Egyptians came later. After discovering the functions of these pyramids, the Egyptians built some smaller pyramids like these. They discovered that the pyramids were pretty good for storing coffins inside, so they put coffins in them. Some were newly built, some came from the distant past. This has made today’s people unable to figure out which period they really came from. History has been messed up.

Many people say that the Mayan culture was related to today’s Mexicans. Actually, it had nothing at all to do with the Mexicans, who are only a mixed race of the Spaniards and the indigenous people. The Mayan culture, on the other hand, belonged to the previous civilization’s period in history. That human race was destroyed in Mexico, and only a small number of people survived. But the Mayan culture was directly related to Mongolians. I won’t get into the details here. Humankind doesn’t know its own historical origins. The same is true for the Caucasians. During the last great flood—the last human civilization was destroyed by a great flood—all the big mountains on the earth that had elevations of less than two thousand meters were submerged, and only the people who lived above two thousand meters survived. The story of Noah’s Ark is true. During that great flood the Western culture was completely destroyed, and the Eastern culture was also in ruins. But the mountain people who lived in the areas of the Himalayan and Kunlun Mountains and who were like rural people were fortunate enough to escape—the Chinese people who lived in the Kunlun Mountains survived. At that time the Eastern culture was well-developed; Yellow River Diagram (Hetu), Luo River Writings (Luoshu), Book of Changes (I Ching), Tai Chi, Eight Trigrams (Bagua), and so on were inherited from the past. People say that they were created by this person or that person of a later generation. Those people only modified them and made them public again. They weren’t created by those people at all, and were all from prehistoric cultures. Although these things were passed down in China, there were even more of them during China’s development in history. More were preserved in ancient times, but they became fewer and fewer as they were passed down. So it’s a nation with a rich cultural background and deep historical origins—that’s China. The Caucasian culture, on the other hand, was wiped out after it was completely submerged by that great flood. At that time, alongside the continent of Europe there was another continent that also sank. That was their most developed area, and it sank, too. So the Caucasians have redeveloped from nothing—no civilization at all—to the science they have today.

The science of ancient China is different from this empirical science of the West. Many archeologists have discussed these issues with me, and I explained everything to them. They also felt that this is the case, because they had many puzzling questions that couldn’t be explained. As I just said, humankind’s understanding of the universe can’t possibly go much further. Nowadays, the starting point of many scientists’ research is wrong. Those who’ve made some achievements in their fields, in particular, are unable to let go of them. They’ve defined what they have understood and set limits. Many of you in the audience are students studying outside China, Ph.D.’s., and Master’s degree holders with open minds. You’ll find that their definitions are correct within the scope of their realms, but that once you go beyond their understanding and their realm the definitions are wrong and restrictive. A truly accomplished scientist is one who dares to break through these limits. For Einstein, too, what he said was only correct within the realm of his understanding; but beyond that realm, what he said is found to be wrong. Do you see the principle? This is because when humans have ascended, when the state of your thinking approaches the high-level truth, and when you approach high levels, you’ll find that the understandings at low levels are wrong. This is how it is."

Now, compare Mr. Li's teachings on Pre HIstory posted earlier on the first page, to the new scientific information got by studyig the ocean floor.

http://www.timstouse.com/EarthHistory/Atlantis/bimini.htm
Paulina Zelitsky, Ocean Engineer, Advanced Digital Communications, Havana, Cuba: "Samples that we recovered from the ocean bottom have justified our structures that we call megalithic structures. The samples are granite stone, completely polished, with some incrustations of fossils. Fossils of organic creatures that normally live on the surface, not on the ocean bottom. This is very interesting because this is evidence that the whole surface sank to the depth of 700 meters (2,297 feet, or about a half mile down).

The area has been seismically active for thousands of years. And what we find on the ocean bottom are fractures from which the magma and volcanic ash came out. From these structures we were able to delineate a configuration of the land that sank because you can see them clearly. The land that sank is very obvious from our image of the ocean bottom. And you can see bays, like harbors, and it's all at the depths of 900 and 700 meters.

Geologically, does Dr. Iturralde-Vinent and others have any idea what happened volcanically? Was it one large eruption or series of eruptions?

Series of eruptions and as he is saying, it is still active. A series of eruptions that created major tectonic movement to such a degree that land is sinking. For example, Cuba has sank and re-emerged a couple of times! But that was long ago, geologically. Now, what happened more recently geologically is that land sank that joined to Yucatan �_ islands between Yucatan and Cuba, they sank.

Also, geologically and botanically in terms of organic life, Yucatan and Cuba �_ the extreme northwestern part of Cuba which is Peninsula Guanahacabibes (Gwan-uh-cah-BEE-buh) are completely identical. Completely identical. It's the same limestone and the same organic life and the same botanic and animal represented. It's very obvious that land that was joining that is now on ocean bottom is land that was joining Yucatan and Cuba. But this land was sinking because of tectonic movement which were occurring. Of course, earthquakes and volcanoes were accompanying the tectonic movements. Tectonic movement is not something that moves softly. It is always accompanied by dramatic volcano and earthquake activity.

But we saw on ocean bottom where the bays and coastal lines of the island that sank. We think there was a series of islands between Cuba and the Yucatan. There could have been sinking 15,000 years ago.

One area between the fractures. Not on the fractures. It is between the fractures that was left undisturbed and just sank flat without fractures. On this area, we can observe those megalithic structures, or constructions. And they have completely different and independent delineation from geological faults, from our geology of the sunken land, or the geology of island Cuba. Completely independent delineation of their own.

Edgar Cayce
" (Q) What was the date of the first destruction, estimating in our present day system of counting time in years B.C.? (A) Seven thousand five hundred (7,500) years before the final destruction, which came as has been given.

I believe the date of the final destruction was 10,500 BC. That then, means the date for the second or previous upheavals that the quote above is referring to, 7000 years before that. 17,500 or 18,000 BC

Now, compare to modern science and Edgar Cayce-

"and the term Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) to signify the period between approximately 22,000 and 17,000 years ago when the ice sheets were at their maximum. "

Modern science agrees, that there were major Ice Age floods at those exact times, 17,000 BC, and 10,500 BC. And also , did Plato's description

But the Earth was probably literally rocked on it's axis and poles more than science knows
 
Originally posted by Kilik as info on Cayce
The first of a series of disturbances came as a result of the use of the very high explosives which were used to destroy the enormous animals that then roamed the world. Great gas pockets were blown open and volcanic eruptions and earthquakes from the slow cooling earth broke up the continent into a group of large islands.

You know this is just plain silly.

There are no "great gas pockets" in Earth´s crust or mantle. Yes, we can know this. Geophysiscs is a wonderfull tool.

All the described cataclysm is nothing but sheer fantasy. Don´t even try to invoke plate tectonics and the breakup of Gondwana or Pangea, since the seafloor spreading happens at a roughly constant around 3 cm/year rate in the Atlantic Mid Ocean Ridge. No, sorry, to suppose the rate may have been very faster is also useless, since the rate has been measured back in time (Mesozoic included) using the pattern of inversion of the magnetic field recorded at sea floor lavas coupled with geochronology.

You know that continental crust is different from oceanic crust and that there are no chunks of continental crust big enough to be assembled in to Plato´s or Caye´s Atlantis sunken in the Atlantic Ocean? How do we know this? Geophysics and geology surveys of the seafloor. You know that the oceanic islands such as the Cannaries are not composed by continental crust? Therefore they can not be the peaks of a sunken continent?

Where are the fossils of these "enormous animals that roamed the world"? Dinosaurs? Are you aware that they were extincted 65 My ago, while your supposed Atlantis disaster dates are 50Ky, 28.5Ky and 10.5Ky ago?

Originally posted by Kilik as info on Cayce
From Cayce’s perspective, much of modern-day technology is simply the rediscovering of knowledge and information possessed by the Atlantean culture. Yet, although the Atlanteans were advanced technologically, many of the people lost their sense of purpose by becoming too attached to power and the material world.

So, Killik, its written that we are redicovering the same technologies. Its not "spiritual knoweledge", as you claimes. Its material. Its hardware. Therefore, it depends on natural resources (ores to obtain Al, Fe, Mg, Mn, Ti, etc.; fossil fuel sources such as coal, oil, radioactive minerals). Where are the sites from where the Atlanteans extracted these commodities from? Where are the 10Ky-old bolts, nails, wrenches, keys, metal plates, hammers, turbines, TV sets, air conditioners, PCs, airplane pieces, etc?

Why a freezer was never found at the ruins of the advanced Harappa, that was so dangerous that it had to be nuked?


Oh, and this is for you and Hancock.
There are no evidences of any global cataclysm associated with the end of the last Ice Age. The sea level rose at a well-known pace. And yes, we know it pretty well.
http://www.homepage.montana.edu/~geol445/hyperglac/eustasy1/

Plenty of time for any global civilization move its cities to higher ground.
 
A massive and unusually abrupt rise in sea level about 14,200 years ago was caused by the partial collapse of ice sheets in Antarctica, a new study has shown, in research that solves a mystery scientists have been heatedly debating for more than a decade.

In less than 500 years at the end of the last Ice Age, this event caused the Earth's sea level to rise about 70 feet. That's about four times faster than sea levels were rising most of the time during this period, and at least 20 times faster than the sea level is currently rising.

The findings were reported today in the journal Science by researchers from Oregon State University, the University of Toronto and the University of Durham in the United Kingdom.

The cause of this event, called the "global meltwater pulse 1A" since it was first identified in 1989, has until now been unknown. This study not only pinpoints the source of the meltwater pulse, but it also makes clear that significant climatic events can occur very rapidly and unpredictably.

http://eobglossary.gsfc.nasa.gov/Newsroom/MediaAlerts/2002/200203288330.html

There were supposed to be 3 distanct "pulses" coinciding with Cayce's dates, the last pulse also coincides closely with Plato

If you were a slave you would maybe not be able to get to higher ground. Plus maye you get to higher ground , in the mountains maybe the high ground where the Bimini road was and some of it still is, though the granite was all exacavated in the 1920s.

Or if you were a soldier or commander in a major war.

A huge amount of land off the coast of Eorope was submerged, not necesarily the Canaries, but maybe them too. A huge area around the Bahamas as well, a whole Island was there

http://www.grahamhancock.com/intro.php
Another interesting development also announced in December 2000 was the discovery of a group of very unusual ancient tombs at Elkab in Upper Egypt. The Elkab tombs are thought to date to the Second Dynasty, although the site itself has yielded evidence of continuous occupation from 8000 years ago until about 2000 years ago. The tombs are circular stone structures (with diameters of 18 to 20 metres) which in two cases were carefully arranged around large natural boulders. They have been compared with the Neolithic funeral mounds of Europe and, as the Belgian excavators admit, are of a type "thus far unknown in Egypt". (http://www.usatoday.com/weather/science/archaeology/egyptdawn121200.htm)

So much then for the archaeologists having the whole picture about the evolution and development of any civilisation - even ancient Egypt which has been the subject of more archaeological investigation than any other.

But now let's remember as well that along continental margins and around islands across the world an area bigger than the Unites States of America was inundated at the end of the Ice Age: 3 million square kilometres (an area the size of India) was submerged around Greater Australia alone; another 3 million square kilometres went under around South-East Asia; the Florida, Yucatan and Grand Bahama Banks were fully-exposed off the Gulf of Mexico; huge areas of land were swallowed up in the Mediterranean, the Black Sea, the North Sea and the Atlantic, etc, etc, etc - the list really does goes on and on.

In my view the possibility of a serious "black hole" in scientific knowledge about recent prehistory is plausible, reasonable and worthy of consideration. I therefore propose that the conclusions of modern archaeology regarding the origins and early evolution of human civilisation should be treated as provisional until a comprehensive, global, marine-archaeological survey of continental shelves down to depths of at least 120 metres has been undertaken.

Graham Hancock Signature




http://www.ambergriscaye.com/pages/town/greatbluehole.html
http://www.nationalgeographic.com/photography/galleries/belize/photo2.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinkhole

"Sinkholes also form from human activity, such as the rare but still occasional collapse of abandoned mines in places like West Virginia. More commonly, sinkholes occur in urban areas due to water main breaks or sewer collapses when old pipes give way. They can also occur from the overpumping and extraction of ground water and subsurface fluids."
blueholesm.jpg

BlueHole_DD_n.jpg










Levitation
http://english.pravda.ru/science/19/94/377/13920_stones.html



info on oklo nuclear reactor, it was perfectly contained when in operation
http://www.pureinsight.org/pi/articles/2003/4/28/1582.html
http://www.s8int.com/atomic1.html
http://www.s8int.com/atomic2.html
oklomine.jpg

oklo2.jpg
 
Killik, stop the data cherry-picking and baseless suppositions.

From your sea level rise link:

"70-foot surge in sea levels in just a few hundred years"

Even a turtle slave would be able to go to higher ground in a few hundred years.

The abrupt sea level rise is [a b]relative[/b] term. No sudden catastrophe here.

The reported pulses do not coincide with Plato´s or Cayces dates. There are thousands of years in between. Data twisting from your part.

Where are the non-submerged remains of these civilizations? Were they so silly to ignore all the resources that exist at the inner parts of the continents? They never needed ores, wood, farmlands? They never saw the advantages of defensive positions at elevated areas? Compare with the Minoic ruins, as well as any other civilization. Palaces and fortress quite often are at higher grounds for obvious reasons.

How many times have we pointed out that the blue holes, the "Bimini Road" and the "oklo reactor" are NATURAL phenomena? But you insist in ignoring the facts. These have been debunked ages ago.

The Bimini Road is composed of calcareous sandstone, AKA beach rock. The granite you mentioned is not near it, and it has nothing to do with it. It is/was there because it was being transported by a vessel that sunk. Stop ignoring facts.
 
Correa Neto said:
Even a turtle slave would be able to go to higher ground in a few hundred years.

Hey, now, we're not making light of the tragedy of turtle enslavement, are we? These noble chelonians, cruelly ripped from the swamps by their evil Atlantean masters, forced to labor very slowly beneath the burning Atlantean sun, dragging shell-breaking loads of non-perishable goods weighing up to five pounds, deserve our sympathy. The turtle culture, wiped out by those Atlantean jerks, was a great and enlightened one, of which only haunting fragments survive.

This was especially cruel since, due to all that advanced technology with the crystals and the light beams and whatnot, Atlanteans didn't actually need slave labor as a resource, so they were making the turtles grind corn and haul wood out of pure spite. Those bastards.

It's well known that Quetzalcoatl escaped the fall of Atlantis through his unlikely friendship with a sea turtle named Bob, but that's another story, and Disney owns the rights by now.
 
SezMe said:
That's it...quit reading right there.

Kilik, let's say your purpose in this thread is to build a house of credibility and evidence for your ideas regarding ancient civilizations. Citing Cayce is like dropping a bunker buster right down the chimney. Well, for me, anyway. Can't speak for the rest.

I feel the same way, I just felt it a little earlier in the thread...when I saw the link to Graham Hancock. :)

As Bugs Bunny would say, "what a maroon." :lol:


edited to add...and I see (as I continue to read this thread) that he is still linking to Hancock. Kilik, that really doesn't help your credibility
 
But where did the granite that the ships were transporting come from? Graham Hancock found several people who remember larger amounts being excavatedf rom the road. THe sunken boats with the sunken granite are 1920s barges, that people remember excavating the granite

One pulse does coincide with Plato, which coincides with Cayce. I've seen scientists saying this, that the reality is that sea levels rose quite quickly, and it is not surprising that this then becomes a major element in human's history. It would be surprising if Plato didn't have some basis for his story, as well as other cultures too

All the areas Graham Hancock mentions, were also the most habitable areas during the ice age
 
Kilik said:
But where did the granite that the ships were transporting come from? Graham Hancock found several people who remember larger amounts being excavatedf rom the road. THe sunken boats with the sunken granite are 1920s barges, that people remember excavating the granite

Who cares where the granite was originally dug from and where the ships were going to? Actualy it is known, I remember seeing it on a documentary. The point is- the blocks did not came originally from the road. Check the "Bimini road" maps you can see in the net. There´s not a single mention to places where the blocks were taken from.

And do you and Hancock know the difference between beach rock and granite? The "Bimini road" is composed of beach rock, not granite. Another hollow claim.

Kilik said:
One pulse does coincide with Plato, which coincides with Cayce. I've seen scientists saying this, that the reality is that sea levels rose quite quickly, and it is not surprising that this then becomes a major element in human's history. It would be surprising if Plato didn't have some basis for his story, as well as other cultures too

Ah, now its a single pulse that is coincident. And using you "narrow" time bracket parameters. Quite different from your first claim that everthing fitted, eh?

Point me to the scientists who said the sea level raised as fast as you claim.

Kilik said:
All the areas Graham Hancock mentions, were also the most habitable areas during the ice age

Are you sure? Based on what? And there was no need for ore, farmlands, wood, etc at the inner parts? No need for defensive positions at higher grounds? That´s a claim very hard to back.
 
Yes, Hancock at least, knows the difference and can identify granite. Only beach rock remains on the road, but nearby there is a sunken barge, sunk by the weight of the granite it was excavating

the scientists Hancock consulted with on Underworld said the "reality is that sea levels rose quite quickly", and that they would be surprised if such an event wasn't a part of the ancient history and was completely forgotten. The date for the end of the ice age, almost coincides exactly with Plato's date for the end of Atlantis

Most very ancient sites, like Malta for example, cannot be carbon dated. THere simply is only stone left, and only a third of what was originally there is left. The megaliths are now actually only one third of their original height

All the wood and bones etc, are gone or not found in many places
 
If they can not be dated, then all your speculations are again baseless.

The barge was carrying stones for edifications and sunk. That´s the origin of the stones. They did not belonged to the "Bimini road". And if Hancock belives the "road" is artificial, then he´s wrong.

And Hancock was very liberal with the "very quick" sea level rise. A turtle would have time to escape and build a new house.

The dates almost coincides but they do not coincide. So, Cayce´s dates do not coincide with nothing, either.
 
Maybe they don't fully agree with Cayce..............yet

Graham Hancocks opinion was he wasn't sure or convinced either way whethe the Bimini road was natural or not. BUt he talked to several people who actually remember a certain guy excavating, several ton blocks of granite off the bimini road. Nearby Hancock found a 1920s barge sunk from carrying too much sheer weight, of granite, with large blocks of Granite all over.

There were a few points noted about how the fragmenting fromed a perfect P joint or something, which is not commonly natural. THe pillars at the corners of the block, the fact that sciencetist don't agree on a definitive date, and the fact that a huge land mass definitely existed right there in the last ice age, and would have been one of the most inhabitable places. Bimini road area would have been one of the highest points

Rmember, animals can actually be smarter than human sometimes and see the signs better.

Actually it's not just the ice age science where the same dates seem to pop up, in human migration the same dates are key points
http://edgarcayce.org/am/geneticevidence.html
 
SezMe said:
Oh, please with the excuses. This is from your long quote:

If this is true, all kinds of scientists would be all over it like ugly on a monkey. Their only pause would be to plan their trip to Oslo.

Just a small piece of nit-picking. If you are referring to the Nobel Prizes, then it's only the Peace Prize that is being awarded in Oslo. The rest of the stuff, happens in Stockholm.

Also, archeological discoveries are not really eligible for any sort of prize to my knowledge.

Anyway, derail's over. Back to Kilik still not understanding natural phenomena.
 
Didn't the Grand Canyon get shaped from huge waves at the end of the last ice age? Or was it a previous ice age. I think it was totally massive waves coming far in land.

http://www.grahamhancock.com/underworld/

They found human teeth at a layer at Malta from over 10,000 years ago, but it doesn't fit in with current understanding, so is mostly ignored
 

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