Do We Have a Soul?

[jmercer]

So, where does this "living" soul go when the body dies?

What makes you think that "resurrection" implies "continuity"? Maybe you don't exist until God recreates you.

 

[Iacchus]

What makes you think that "resurrection" implies "continuity"? Maybe you don't exist until God recreates you.

Here are a couple of interesting dreams in case you're interested (#'s 11-19) ... Perhaps you can explain to me why they seemed so real?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Here are a couple of interesting dreams in case you're interested (#'s 11-19) ... Perhaps you can explain to me why they seemed so real?

Dreams have the capacity to seem very real because they tend to excite the same areas of the brain as do incoming signals from external stimuli. For example, when you "see" something in a dream, your occipital lobe is churning along just as surely as if you were really receiving visual information through the eyes. The frontal lobe (credited with the brunt of the information processing) does show heightened activity, possibly because it's working overtime to try to make sense of the often random-seeming visual information it is receiving from the occipital.

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

This is not a double post. This is simply a second post I'm posting to show evidence that I did not double post, but at the same time arouse suspicions in you that I did, hopefully resulting in enough cognitive dissonance for you to go nutso. Nothing personal.

 

[Iacchus]

Dreams have the capacity to seem very real because they tend to excite the same areas of the brain as do incoming signals from external stimuli. For example, when you "see" something in a dream, your occipital lobe is churning along just as surely as if you were really receiving visual information through the eyes. The frontal lobe (credited with the brunt of the information processing) does show heightened activity, possibly because it's working overtime to try to make sense of the often random-seeming visual information it is receiving from the occipital.

Yes, but can you tell me who or "what" is experiencing the dream? And why is it that the body, for all intents and purposes, doesn't participate in the dream? While it just kind of lays there, looking placid and stupid. And yes, I've had many a dream were the randomness was taken out. Which, in fact is what made them so real.

 

[Iacchus]

This is not a double post. This is simply a second post I'm posting to show evidence that I did not double post, but at the same time arouse suspicions in you that I did, hopefully resulting in enough cognitive dissonance for you to go nutso. Nothing personal.

Do you mean because yours was the 42nd and 43rd replies to this thread? Hmm ... Did you know that the state of Washington was located next to the state of Idaho?

 

[Iacchus]

Dreams have the capacity to seem very real because they tend to excite the same areas of the brain as do incoming signals from external stimuli.

So, in other words, the brain is capable of receiving "signals" from separate sources here?

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

Yes, but can you tell me who or "what" is experiencing the dream?

In most cases, the dreamer, although in rare instances, the entire city of Hoboken.

And why is it that the body, for all intents and purposes, doesn't participate in the dream?

Just the other night, shortly after I drifted off, I dreamt that I approached a friend of mine's home, ran up the steps and slipped backwards. I awoke immediately, with my leg kicking up and away, the motion it was about to take in the dream.

Please tell me I won't have to bring up wet dreams.

So, in other words, the brain is capable of receiving "signals" from separate sources here?

Well, obviously. I'm currently receiving visual information primarily from a computer monitor. Were I to turn my head, I would be receiving from a different source, in this case a door. Exciting, isn't it?

 

[Iacchus]

In most cases, the dreamer, although in rare instances, the entire city of Hoboken.

Eh? ...

Just the other night, shortly after I drifted off, I dreamt that I approached a friend of mine's home, ran up the steps and slipped backwards. I awoke immediately, with my leg kicking up and away, the motion it was about to take in the dream.

Please tell me I won't have to bring up wet dreams.

It's funny, I once had this dream where I was walking up this dirt road, where the embankment rose up six or seven feet above the road. And I approached this coyote, which kept saying, "I'm not going to eat you, I'm not going to eat you" ... Apparently it thought I was some other kind of creature, which is entirely possible. And I was thinking, "Oh really," as I wound up my right leg in order to kick him straight in the head. And when I let loose, bam! Right smack into the wall! Aside from that though, I wasn't even aware that the wall existed until after I awoke. Oh, and neither was the coyote there either.

So, what does this tell us, aside from the fact that the soul is still "attached" to the body?

Well, obviously. I'm currently receiving visual information primarily from a computer monitor. Were I to turn my head, I would be receiving from a different source, in this case a door. Exciting, isn't it?

How so? It's still external isn't it?

 

[Donks]

It's funny, I once had this dream where I was walking up this dirt road, where the embankment rose up six or seven feet above the road. And I approached this coyote, which kept saying, "I'm not going to eat you, I'm not going to eat you" ... Apparently it thought I was some other kind of creature, which is entirely possible. And I was thinking, "Oh really," as I wound up my right leg in order to kick him straight in the head. And when I let loose, bam! Right smack into the wall! Aside from that though, I wasn't even aware that the wall existed until after I awoke. Oh, and neither was the coyote there either.

So, what does this tell us, aside from the fact that the soul is still "attached" to the body?

It tells you that the wall existed whether you were aware of it or not?

 

[Iacchus]

It tells you that the wall existed whether you were aware of it or not?

I don't deny the reality of the wall. Neither do I deny the reality of the dream.

 

[Donks]

I don't deny the reality of the wall. Neither do I deny the reality of the dream.

Then why didn't you hit the coyote?

 

[P.S.A.]

So, what does this tell us, aside from the fact that the soul is still "attached" to the body?

It tells us that you should stop putting those "special" herbs onto your late night cheese sandwiches. And to let the coyote eat you next time...

 

[Marquis de Carabas]

It's funny, I once had this dream where I was walking up this dirt road, where the embankment rose up six or seven feet above the road. And I approached this coyote, which kept saying, "I'm not going to eat you, I'm not going to eat you" ... Apparently it thought I was some other kind of creature, which is entirely possible. And I was thinking, "Oh really," as I wound up my right leg in order to kick him straight in the head. And when I let loose, bam! Right smack into the wall! Aside from that though, I wasn't even aware that the wall existed until after I awoke. Oh, and neither was the coyote there either.

So, what does this tell us, aside from the fact that the soul is still "attached" to the body?

It tells us that the body does, in fact, participate, and that you should move your bed farther from the wall.

How so? It's still external isn't it?

Well, but what isn't? External is a pretty relative term. You can say "the brain receives signals both from the external world and itself," but that's not entirely accurate. In the specific case I mentioned above, areas of the frontal lobe were receiving their signals from the occipital lobe, which is external to it. The occipital lobe is part of the outside world, as far as the frontal lobe is concerned, as certainly as is the monitor and the door. All signals start somewhere else.

 

[Hope12]

To Lachuss,

You said and asked:
"Originally posted by Hope12
So in conclusion “Do we have a soul?” No we are a soul! Each person alive and animal alive is a living soul.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lachuss asked:
"So, where does this "living" soul go when the body dies"

My reply to Lachuss:



Many people like yourself may ask, if we are the sould where did the life go?” To aid understanding we might ask: “When you separate water into its constituent parts, hydrogen and oxygen, where does the water go?” Or again, when you rob a candle’s flame of oxygen, where does the flame go? A moment ago the process of combustion united the material on the wick with oxygen and there was flame. Where is the flame now? The answer in both illustrations is “nowhere.” It takes hydrogen and oxygen to make water; separate them and the water ceases to exist. It takes combustible material and oxygen to make flame; separate them and the flame ceases to exist. It takes body and breath of life to produce soul; separate them and the soul ceases to exist.
“Where does that leave those that die?” you may ask. “I expect to die some day, like everyone else. If God made me that way, what will be left for me then? What future will I have?”
In the minds of nations rejecting God and his Son Christ Jesus that question has led to the doctrine of soul immortality. Not so, however, in the minds of those who penned the foregoing inspired Bible descriptions of a mortal soul. You may be sure that they had a hope. Also you can be assured that the God who gave his first perfect human creation the hope of living forever if obedient did not leave these faithful, if dying, Bible writers without hope.
Paul the apostle reviews some of their faithful life histories in his letter to the Hebrews, chapter eleven. With eloquence he records their triumphs of faith, triumphs over sword, fire, beasts, opposing kingdoms, yes, and their own weaknesses. Why did they endure all this so faithfully? “In order that they might attain a better resurrection.” Heb. 11:32-35 Not immortality, but resurrection is our hope!
Resurrect a soul that has disintegrated? How? What is there to resurrect? What trace remains of faithful men now dead for centuries? The one factor in the universe that allows resurrection is memory, the greatest memory in the universe, God’s memory. “The memory of the just is blessed: but the name of the wicked shall rot.” Prov. 10:7 The willfully wicked may be gone forever, gone and forgotten, but, because of God’s powerful memory, faithful men like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob “are all living from his standpoint.” Luke 20:38, because they are alive to him in his memory. True, as living souls they have long since passed out of existence; they “are not,” but it is God “who makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.”—Rom. 4:17,
Faithful life patterns are preserved indelibly, in all their intricate detail, in the mind of the One who is able to have a personal acquaintance with each and every one of seemingly innumerable stars: “He tells the number of the stars; he calls them all by their names.” Ps. 147:4 Laid away in their tombs, wherever they may be, the faithful are encompassed by God’s illimitable memory. Moreover, “the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.” John 5:28, 29, He whose matchless power created or constituted the first human souls can reconstitute faithful human souls back to life again, can re-stand them again to life. That is the meaning of resurrection.
That is the true object of man’s desire, the accomplished end of his long search for continued existence, the answer to his question, voiced by faithful Job: “If a man die, shall he live again?” Job 14:14 “Yes,” answers the Bible, “if his faithfulness preserves him in God’s memory.” To some people in these troubled last days of this old world even greater blessings may come, the privilege of surviving this world’s end and never dying, even as “a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water” when the flood of Noah’s day descended. 1 Pet. 3:20,

Lachuss, I hope your reasoning’s, longings, searching’s, set your faith and hope, not on false pagan immortality promises, but on the God-given promise you have seen through the eyes of his Word. Where do those that die go? Into their grave and the memory of them goes to God. The memory of each person that has died and will die will go to God and on the day or resurrection as brought out in John 5:28.29. Until then may we work towards having God remember us, then we too will be resurrected. Not all will be, for there will be a resurrection or the righteous and the unrighteous.

Take care,
Hope12

 

[jmercer]

Yep. Like Hope12 said:

You're born.

You exist.

You die.

You cease to exist when you die, although God holds a perfect image of you in His mind.

God re-creates you on Judgement Day.

You exist again, picking up right where you left off.

You join the Kingdom of Heaven forever with an incorruptable body, or you go to Hell and suffer for all eternity.

Or that's the Church version, anyway.

(By the way, Hope12, brave post in a skeptics forum. Welcome.)

 

[Iacchus]

It tells us that the body does, in fact, participate, and that you should move your bed farther from the wall.

Well, but what isn't? External is a pretty relative term. You can say "the brain receives signals both from the external world and itself," but that's not entirely accurate. In the specific case I mentioned above, areas of the frontal lobe were receiving their signals from the occipital lobe, which is external to it. The occipital lobe is part of the outside world, as far as the frontal lobe is concerned, as certainly as is the monitor and the door. All signals start somewhere else.

Here's an interesting dream that I had. From the Dionysus Forums thread, On the Verge ...

I had a very unusual experience the other night, where I had just laid down to go to bed, and was trying to "tune into" my thoughts, which I normally do, and I started drifting off to sleep and, became aware of it. While at the same time I felt the presence of other "beings," the likes of which I often address in my mind before going to sleep, and I said, "Wait a second, I'm not letting you pull me under that quickly," and I started groping for arms and legs (in my mind) and sure enough they were there, and it felt like they were draped in a lightly fitting fabric that women normally wear, like a gown or a robe or something. So I did the best I could to hold on, and in the next instant (two or three seconds after I fell asleep), there I was in another dimension.

I found myself standing on the grassy banks of the shore, overlooking a pond or a small lake, and it was kind of murky looking. While I tried to figure out what I needed needed to do (I was kind of hovering at this point) to keep from being pulled out into the water and getting sucked down or, make it further onto shore without being so close to the edge ... which, was posing a dilemma (the water signifying the unconscious by the way). I was also aware of being in the midst of several women (I didn't get a good look) who were the ones I initially grabbed onto. And we were all in kind of a jocular mood as I tried to orient myself.

While it's funny, because when you become aware of the water, and have a fear of being pulled under, that's exactly what draws you out in the middle. Needless to say, I couldn't work it out completely and, within half a minute of falling asleep (or less?), I was wide awake again. And yet, it would seem I may be on the verge of being able to "walk into my dreamscapes" at will.

 

[Z]

Yeah - nice dream. And that's all it is, a dream. Brain activity now observable because the sensory functions are 'tuned down'. You don't 'go' anywhere. There's no 'other dimension' involved. You're locked inside your own skull. Or so say 'those that know'.

I had a dream last night that I thought was pretty interesting. I met God. Amazingly, He looked a lot like James Dean would at 90. Anyway, God and I got to talking, and He was pretty much an arrogant sod, who smelled faintly of burnt offerings and cheap red wine. So we discuss the Bible, the modern Church (by which, apparently, He meant the Hebrew Church), and his issues dealing with those Other Gods back in the Good Ol' Days. Then the view panned out, and we're in some kind of divine Mental Institution, with beautiful gardens and shady walks, and lots of faceless angellic forms in medical nurse-type outfits accompanying various and sundry deities.

Then there's another pan-out, and it seems the mental institution is inside a giant brain! But the 'camera angle' then zooms in, and I can see the brain is composed entirely of human bodies, entangled together into one big hamburger-like mass of flesh - and this is where it got interesting - that began including more and more microcircuitry. Computer chips and circuits started replacing flesh, until over half of the Big Brain was converted; and then the Mental Institution was sent to the Recycle Bin.

As soon as that happened, the entire Big Brain expanded by thousands of times and engulfed the whole Universe.

Anyway, it was a nice dream. I wonder what it means?

 

[Hope12]

Let us put dreams in their rightful perspective!

Hello again Lacchus,


A vision is a sight, scene, or message superimposed upon a person’s mind while he is awake, usually by some extraordinary means. For example, Peter, James, and John, “when they got fully awake,” saw a vision of the transfigured Jesus. Luke 9:28-36; 2 Peter 1:16-21

In some cases a message was conveyed in a dream, or night vision, being impressed upon the recipient’s subconscious while he was asleep. Daniel thus writes of “the visions of my head upon my bed”—or, as translator Ronald A. Knox renders it, “as I lay watching in my dream.”—Daniel 4:10.
Some people feel that the subjects of their dreams have special messages for them. In order to have the dreams interpreted, they keep a notepad by their bed so that they can record them when they awaken. Regarding the usefulness of books that try to give meaning to dream symbols, The Dream Game, by Ann Faraday, says: “Dream books in which you look up the meanings of dream themes and symbols are equally useless, whether they be traditional or based on some modern psychological theory.”
Since it seems that dreams originate principally within the brain, it is not reasonable to think that they have special messages for us. We should view them as a normal function of the brain that helps maintain it in a healthful condition.

A person may claim that God spoke to him in a dream or that his dreams of future events proved true, yet that is not sufficient reason to believe him and blindly follow him. Note the instructions written to the Israelites, found at Deuteronomy 13:1-3, 5: “In case a prophet or a dreamer of a dream arises in your midst and does give you a sign or a portent, and the sign or the portent does come true of which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us walk after other gods, whom you have not known, and let us serve them,’ you must not listen to the words of that prophet or to the dreamer of that dream . . . And that prophet or that dreamer of the dream should be put to death.” God permitted such ones to speak out falsely as a test of the loyalty of his people.
Instead of blindly believing the claims of charismatic dreamers, the wise course is for us to test their claims to avoid being misled by the invisible arch deceiver, who is “misleading the entire inhabited earth.” Revelation 12:9 But how can they be reliably tested?
God’s written Word is our divinely given guide to the truth. Regarding it, Jesus Christ said: “Your word is truth.” John 17:17 So we are admonished at 1 John 4:1: “Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world.” When carefully compared with the Bible, their claims, philosophies, and actions will conflict with it. God’s Word is the authority as to what is truth.
If he claims to have a soul in him that does not die, he is contradicting God’s Word that plainly states: “The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” Ezekiel 18:4 Is he exalting himself and drawing a personal following? Matthew 23:12 cautions: “Whoever exalts himself will be humbled.” And Acts 20:30 warns Christians: “From among you yourselves men will rise and speak twisted things to draw away the disciples after themselves.”
Does he advocate violent actions? James 3:17, 18 condemns him: “The wisdom from above is first of all chaste, then peaceable, reasonable, ready to obey, full of mercy and good fruits, not making partial distinctions, not hypocritical. Moreover, the fruit of righteousness has its seed sown under peaceful conditions for those who are making peace.” Does he seek political authority or influence in the world? God’s Word denounces him emphatically, saying: “Whoever . . . wants to be a friend of the world is constituting himself an enemy of God.” Thus the Bible exposes what is false.—James 4:4.

If a person has a dream about the death of a family member or a friend, it is perhaps because he has been concerned about this person. That the person may have died on precisely the night of the dream does not in itself prove that the dream was prophetic. For every dream of this type that appears to become a reality, there are hundreds that do not.
Although God did use dreams in the past to reveal prophetic events and give instructions while his written Word was being produced, he has no need to do so today. That written Word contains all the instructions from God that mankind needs at this time, and its prophecies concern events more than a thousand years into the future. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 So we can be confident that our dreams are not indications from God of future events but essential functions of the brain
Take care,
Hope12

 

[BillyJoe]

.....and have you heard the one about......oh, no....that was for real....no fun at all.....hmmm, off to bed now then for some real fun ......

BJ